[Major Payne]

Scary? Where did all the people go? Very interesting! A must play to the end!

Pentagon Strike

Ron

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I watched that a few months ago. Very thought provoking, for sure. After watching it four times, I then started googling, and found more resources about this. Sure does make you wonder what the heck really happened that day.

[Kat]

I watched that a few months ago. Very thought provoking, for sure. After watching it four times, I then started googling, and found more resources about this. Sure does make you wonder what the heck really happened that day.

[frantique]

Actor Charlie Sheen has joined a growing army of public figures in the US who are questioning the official story of the events of Sept 11, 2001 and are calling for a new independent investigation.
Speaking to "The Alex Jones Show" on the GCN Radio Network Sheen said that the bigest conspiracy theory was put out by the government itself.
"We're not the conspiracy theorists on this particular issue," Sheen said. "It seems to me like 19 amateurs with box cutters taking over four commercial airliners and hitting 75% of their targets, that feels like a conspiracy theory. It raises a lot of questions."

[warriorscot]

It wasnt quite "19 amateurs with box cutters" all the propaganda stateside always tries to belittle the terrorists themselves portraying them as amateurs in actual fact they were relativley well trained and intellgient people who put years of planning into it, the worse thing you can do is underestimate these people who are for the most part well trained, by people who were former mujhadeen trained by the CIA. They arent as well trained as some like the IRA were but its pretty close. Certainly circumstances around it are suspicous but at the time the US was very "relaxed" in its mindset it was still in invincible mode, its a different time now of paranoia and propaganda which is a big factor when considering something like a consipracy theory.

The only surprising part is the box cutters, they certainly didnt lack the money for more sophisticated equipment than box cutters. In those days with a little planning and preparation it wouldnt be all that diffucult to get firearms or explosives even ceramic blades onto the flight.

Although given the secretive nature of the US military it could have conceivably been one of the defence systems at the pentagon that destroyed the aircraft, it was a well defended building even then and its hard to believe that the defence systems werent engaged when the aircraft went terminal, and obviously a plane crashing into a military building is one thing but a plane being blown out the air by an air defence system just before wouldnt be as good propaganda. And the pentagon would probably have something a little better than a patriot battery to look after it, politicians always get the best kits to protect them even before troops so its possible.

Also broken windows and apparent lack of damage isnt neccesarily a factor of evidence there, the pentagon is the modern equivalent to a caslte, its doubtful they are using normal glass in the windows, it will be armoured glass at least an inch thick i would imagine, the kind of stuff an RPG would have a hard time against.

[aerostarlegacy]

Good point.
But still...

[sarahw]

Wreckage from WTC, this was a much larger explosion than the pentagon.
[attachment=8377:attachment]
There is evidence for and against that is questionable. Some things I have observed:
The fuel is stored in the wings, as you look at the hole it only shows where the fuselage would have entered. The wings storing the fuel would have severe made damage to the building, it would have been a wider explosion, not central to the point of first impact.
As for the unreleased survielance footage. It is illegal to film the pentagon without approval, I remember a reporter from "Fox News Channel" had equipment confiscated shortly afterwards. The FBI and DOD officials would have been previously aware of the surrounding cameras. But why release 5 frames of film which basically show only an explosion, and not others? Now that the 911 commision has concluded, surely it would be appropriate to release the film. Or will it be locked away from public eyes like the Zapruder film?
Most importantly. If it was not a 757 that hit the pentagon, not terrorists, what does this suggest? What of the other strikes that day?
Answers???
Questions!!!

[Burton1]

Their was a write up on snoops or something i forgot the name. But they said how a plane never hit the pentagon. IT had some interesting facts, only if kept.

They explained how why were their only little parts of the plane? Their were items all over the ground, but they couldn't find the black box of what happened? Alot of interesting facts. If i find it again i will link you the site.

I was looking at the site and it is the same thing. The site i saw also asked were the plane was.

Edited by Burton1, 11 May 2006 - 07:46 AM.

[frantique]

Another interesting take on this subject can be found at Mother of All Lies About 9/11

And as well, the following forum has some pretty interesting stuff with both the conspiracy theorists and believers of the official version well represented airdisaster.com forums

[dsenette]

The fuel is stored in the wings, as you look at the hole it only shows where the fuselage would have entered. The wings storing the fuel would have severe made damage to the building, it would have been a wider explosion, not central to the point of first impact.

the fuel is indeed stored in the wings...but...you need to take into account that the places where the wings attatch to the plane aren't exactly the strongest part of the plane...the wings are in fact designed to shear off if they hit something so that the fuselage can continue forward instead of being whipped around violently (theoretically this is safer for the people inside)...so image having a toy plane with shearable wings on it...now ram that plane through a cardboard box...the wings would shear off and wrap around back behind the plane...now you'd only have a fuselage (or slightly bigger) shaped and sized whole in the box.... another interesting fact about the shearing winds is that due to the forward motion of the plane the wings would be sheared around backwards thereby allowing the fuel stored within them to flow out towards the front of the plane...and then into (and down the sides) of the building thereby creating a massive fireball (wich is what did the damage to the WTC)...

[warriorscot]

An interesting fact about the WTC it was actually designed for a direct aircraft impact(first semester civil engineering project had to work out how much stress it should have been able to take before falling down. But they calculated the impact for an accident not an attack and by a 727 hit that being the largest aircraft at the time, i have the report from the investigation its a fairly interesting read if youve got enough engineering knowledge to make sense of it. The stress if the impact though was the death nell to the WTC not the fireball as such the initial impact pushed the building stress out of the safe region and after that it was only time, the blast was significantly higher than the rating for the building because all calculations had been done for fuel less impacts, if the pilots had thought to dump the fuel as soon as they had seen the disturbance onboard the casualties and damage would have been significantly less, the WTC would have had to be destroyed later by controlled explosion but most of the people would have survived. One of the more surprising pieces of damage was the collapse of the unhit building next to it just by the shock of the impacts that was alot more damning as that building should never have fell down at all.

But you will fnid out in 50 years no matter what happens i dont know about the US but in the UK the secrets act only lasts 50 years(so we are finding out lots about WW2 right now) and using the freedom of information act you will be able to find out what really happened because even if you dont have it in the US its safe to assume that at least the UK inteligence agencies would have information on any "conspiracies".

Modern aircraft are actually quite flimsy things when structurally compromised, the skin is very strong when intact but damage it and they tear to pieces they are designed for strength in there envionment but in something like a crash of fully fueled aircraft then they would tear themselves to pieces in an instant.

Ideally to find out the truth there are two key things you would want, the ATC records, and satelite imagery at the time would show you pretty clearly, but there are only a handful of governments that would have imagery and its either in there best interest to keep any secret or they dont want to admit to spying.

[sarahw]

[attachment=8378:attachment]

That looks like debris to me. Note the wheel in the bottom right.

Edited by sarahw, 11 May 2006 - 12:11 PM.

[frantique]

sarahw, Here is photo blown up from a section of the photo you have above in bottom right. And also a closeup photo of the landing gear of a 757.

[attachment=8391:attachment] [attachment=8392:attachment]

From what I've read from firefighter/rescue people, etc who were interviewed at the time there was plenty of identifiable debris both inside the building and outside. My thoughts on this subject are not directed at the authenticity of the actual events but more as to whether there was government complicity and a coverup. Certainly the way in which the investigation has been handled suggests this could be possible.

I agree with Scot in that we probably will not really know all the facts for another 50 years or so. And if the government was involved they are no doubt very mobile in feeding or instigating the various conspiracy theories in order to redirect public attention away from what really happened and why.

[Burton1]

IF you go to that first website and search around. Their were people saying that they smelled cordite inside the pentagon and at the crash site. Like somone exploded at the exact time like their was a planned blowing up.

People said it didn't sound like a 757 Beoing. Some people said they saw a small comerical Jet fly.

[warriorscot]

Well like is said it would be pretty amazing if they didnt get a shot of which would explain the cordite.

[sari]

Also broken windows and apparent lack of damage isnt neccesarily a factor of evidence there, the pentagon is the modern equivalent to a caslte, its doubtful they are using normal glass in the windows, it will be armoured glass at least an inch thick i would imagine, the kind of stuff an RPG would have a hard time against.

I have several things to say about this. I was working as a sub-contractor at the Pentagon several years prior to 9/11 - we were moving people out to swing space in preparation for the renovation. In fact, the plane struck the newly-renovated portion of the Pentagon (people had just begun to move back into), so the windows and walls were very reinforced; designed to protect against an attack. The windows were blast-resistant, to prevent injuries from flying shattered glass, and the walls were thicker and stronger than the un-renovated portions.

Secondly, if I remember correctly, the plane was estimated to be traveling at 500 miles per hour at the time of impact. At that speed, how accurately could people really say what they were seeing? Have you ever stood by a racetrack and watched a car go by at 120 mph? Multiply that by a factor of almost 5, and tell me how many details you could pick out. Also, what do expect to be left of the plane at that speed? What utter devastation would come from an impact of that magnitude, especially into a fortified building?

Thirdly, I have friends who are a pilot and flight attendant for that airline, and they knew the pilot and attendants on that plane. It was a devastating time for them, as well as for the families and friends of all the other victims. Are you truly going to tell me the government did something with that plane and all the people on it? Where did they take it? What did they do with the people? I worked with someone who was killed at the Pentagon that day; in light of the other horrible events that occurred on that day, I have to believe that her death, like those of all the other innocent people, was the result of the terrorists' actions.

There have been conspiracy theories about many tragic events in our history - think of Kennedy's assassination, and there are people who claim the Holocaust never happened - giving credence to these stories only increases the pain and suffering of the survivors, in my opinion.