[sari]

Well, this discussion is leading us to Schrodinger's Cat.

Here's Schrödinger's (theoretical) experiment: We place a living cat into a steel chamber, along with a device containing a vial of hydrocyanic acid. There is, in the chamber, a very small amount of a radioactive substance. If even a single atom of the substance decays during the test period, a relay mechanism will trip a hammer, which will, in turn, break the vial and kill the cat. The observer cannot know whether or not an atom of the substance has decayed, and consequently, cannot know whether the vial has been broken, the hydrocyanic acid released, and the cat killed. Since we cannot know, the cat is both dead and alive according to quantum law, in a superposition of states. It is only when we break open the box and learn the condition of the cat that the superposition is lost, and the cat becomes one or the other (dead or alive). This situation is sometimes called quantum indeterminacy or the observer's paradox: the observation or measurement itself affects an outcome, so that it can never be known what the outcome would have been if it were not observed.

Schrodinger's cat

Now, I knew nothing about this until about a month ago, and I happened to read a mystery which had a lot about quantum theory, superstring theory and the 10 dimensions, as well as an explanation of Schrodinger's cat. I still don't pretend to understand most (if any of it) but I found it interesting.

sari

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The quantum world is probably the best argument for other dimensions. Quantum objects can appear in multiple states, and even places at the same time. Changing an entangled quantum objects affects it's twin, no matter how far the distance, and have also been teleported in the lab.

Of course there are other explanations. The current edition of New Scientist has a good article on loop quantum gravity. It's subscription only, but here's an excerpt:

The origins of loop quantum gravity can be traced back to the 1980s, when Abhay Ashtekar, now at Pennsylvania State University in University Park, rewrote Einstein's equations of general relativity in a quantum framework. Smolin and Carlo Rovelli of the University of the Mediterranean in Marseille, France, later developed Ashtekar's ideas and discovered that in the new framework, space is not smooth and continuous but instead comprises indivisible chunks just 10-35 metres in diameter. Loop quantum gravity then defines space-time as a network of abstract links that connect these volumes of space, rather like nodes linked on an airline route map...
...In Markopoulou and Kribs's version of loop quantum gravity, they considered the universe as a giant quantum computer, where each quantum of space is replaced by a bit of quantum information. Their calculations showed that the qubits' resilience would preserve the quantum braids in space-time, explaining how particles could be so long-lived amid the quantum turbulence...
...Meanwhile, Markopoulou's vision of the universe as a giant quantum computer might be more than a useful analogy: it might be true, according to some theorists. If so, there is one startling consequence: space itself might not exist. By replacing loop quantum gravity's chunks of space with qubits, what used to be a frame of reference - space itself - becomes just a web of information. If the notion of space ceases to have meaning at the smallest scale, Markopoulou says, some of the consequences of that could have been magnified by the expansion that followed the big bang. "My guess is that the non-existence of space has effects that are measurable, if you can only see it right." Because it's pretty hard to wrap your mind around what it means for there to be no space, she adds.

So, we're just part of a huge quantum computer. Anyone seen the Matrix?

[admin]

The quantum world is probably the best argument for other dimensions. Quantum objects can appear in multiple states, and even places at the same time. Changing an entangled quantum objects affects it's twin, no matter how far the distance, and have also been teleported in the lab.

Of course there are other explanations. The current edition of New Scientist has a good article on loop quantum gravity. It's subscription only, but here's an excerpt:

The origins of loop quantum gravity can be traced back to the 1980s, when Abhay Ashtekar, now at Pennsylvania State University in University Park, rewrote Einstein's equations of general relativity in a quantum framework. Smolin and Carlo Rovelli of the University of the Mediterranean in Marseille, France, later developed Ashtekar's ideas and discovered that in the new framework, space is not smooth and continuous but instead comprises indivisible chunks just 10-35 metres in diameter. Loop quantum gravity then defines space-time as a network of abstract links that connect these volumes of space, rather like nodes linked on an airline route map...
...In Markopoulou and Kribs's version of loop quantum gravity, they considered the universe as a giant quantum computer, where each quantum of space is replaced by a bit of quantum information. Their calculations showed that the qubits' resilience would preserve the quantum braids in space-time, explaining how particles could be so long-lived amid the quantum turbulence...
...Meanwhile, Markopoulou's vision of the universe as a giant quantum computer might be more than a useful analogy: it might be true, according to some theorists. If so, there is one startling consequence: space itself might not exist. By replacing loop quantum gravity's chunks of space with qubits, what used to be a frame of reference - space itself - becomes just a web of information. If the notion of space ceases to have meaning at the smallest scale, Markopoulou says, some of the consequences of that could have been magnified by the expansion that followed the big bang. "My guess is that the non-existence of space has effects that are measurable, if you can only see it right." Because it's pretty hard to wrap your mind around what it means for there to be no space, she adds.

So, we're just part of a huge quantum computer. Anyone seen the Matrix?

[frantique]

So would that mean that we are merely processes? Kind of makes sense really ... like there are processes that are necessary for the competent running of the whole system (universe) and there are those who could be more likened to a virus who compromise the system or some of the processes of the system.

Found this interesting with regard to parallel dimensions (or rather physical and mind/spirit dimensions):

[attachment=10240:attachment]

Have always been fascinated with some of the info that is around regarding what is called the "Philadelphia Experiment". It's been touted as one of the master conspiracy theories, however, from what I've read this could also just be a big cover (or conspiracy) - it is a fascinating read when you get into it. Here is a brief description of it http://en.wikipedia....phia_Experiment

Edited by frantique, 16 August 2006 - 03:05 AM.

[frantique]

It just struck me (... ouch!) that using the analogy of our universe being a huge quantam computer then perhaps accessing other dimensions could be likened to accessing sites or pages on the net. In that numerous internet users can interface with a page on the net at the same time from all over our planet thereby the page experiences interaction with multiple users and so we (like the page) can experience/access interaction with multiple/numerous dimensions.
Lordy, lord and I haven't even had a glass of wine! Think I'd better just get away from this conversation, get back to earth and cook dinner!

[warriorscot]

Lol, this is why i hated quantumn physics at school at least in physics class and the main reason why ive avoided it at uni, when you consider quantum theory and mechanics in physics you hit the philosphical side as well all your if i cant see it does it exist stuff, what i love about quantum mehanics from chemistry is that we work with only what we know about it and we do so very effectivley its a tool for us to use there is no philosophical debate we prove it and find a use for it or we forget about it. Much less confusing although it is still a mind boggler as its hard to work with trying to determine sub atomic reactions is hard and even atomic reactions are affected by quantum theory and needs compensating for. Thats the difference ive found chemists deal with realities practicality physicist live in a fairly world half the time leave philosophy out and deal with what you can see leave the rest to less educated people.

The whole if it isnt percieved how can exist thing is nonsense because everythign in existence is percievable in some way by some thing be it an intelligence or a particle at a quantum level all particles are indistinct dependant on each other particles exist there and everywhere so if they didnt exist there they wouldnt exist in that place they wouldnt be anywhere else either and the whole universe would disappear because your jar of peanut butter didnt exist.

So your peanut butter is there, now you can debate wether it exists on a philosphical level however on the levels of reality and truth the peanut butter exists because it has to it was created it was perceived it can be nothing else but a jar of peanut butter sitting in the larder if it wasnt to exist it would cause interesting anomilies in the area around it so therefore it must exist because we dont want our favourite monkey sucked into some hole in the fabric of the universe.

And the universe is infinite at least in our perceivable dimensions if you use that method of classifying dimensions of course, as it as an undefined limit based on the current thinking on its existance.

It all seems to boil down to real quantum mechanics and imaginary quantum mechanics, the real stuff we allready work with and work on making useful the imaginery stuff is what people talk about when in a philophical bent but is totally beyond understanding or proving.

Quantum mecahnics is interesting i like to think of it much as you think of relatavistic mechanics its just another level of accuracy and complication to work with, you can work with newtonian methods to a certain point and they work until you get to where you need relativity then you go so far and you need quantum all these levels of physics are also the reason why we have theories on things we know make sense, its called newtonian theory because it works its provable but sometimes it is and isnt provable at the same time, the same goes for relativity, relativistic equations are totally accurate at pretty much everything until things get so tiny and fast it stops working but it still works like newtonian theory worked so even though we can prove it we cant because it nly works most of the time, and then we get to quantum levels and its just so complicated even the simplest tools we have for predicting it are horrendously complicated, and we keep at all for the purpose of trying to find that near mythic objective: the ultimate proof something that isnt just a theory but a proof of everything.

But leave me out of it can you imagine how long an equation of everything would be, and i cant be bothered with maths as it is.

PS, Flea back away from the pipe man youve had WAY to much.

[fleamailman]

It isn't the peanut jar so much as whether the empty space between the jar and the ready-to-fry mars bars exists too. The question at its simplest is whether zero is something by default.

btw it is hard to imagine that the Romans, and the rest of us didn't have the digit 0 until the church finally allowed it in the 13th century.

[Pi rules]

I found a cool quantum physics animation here that deals with the double-slit experiment.

[admin]

A very understandable explanation of a phenomenon we understand very little about.

Maybe someday a quantum computer will help us to understand quantum physics.