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I guarentee this is the hardest computer mystery you will find on the


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#16
tylerscool

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I have noticed somethng ground breaking, when the computer stalls, the standby light keeps on and the ram light goes off and then goes back on. This may be the problem. Please respond soon because i am really getting on the edge with this thing i really hope it doesn't have a hardware problem but if it is i have a PSU in mind
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#17
Samm

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Ok, the image in the link is a buzzer which does the same job as a speaker. Speakers however normally come as part of the case although a lot of newer cases don't always have them. Has your current motherboard also got a buzzer that isn't removable?

Not having a speaker or a buzzer will not prevent the system from booting so it is not the cause of the problem. However it is very helpful if you do have one as it will allow you to hear the POST test beeps. i.e. when there's a problem that prevents the system from booting, the bios will often emit a series of beeps that allows you to identity what the problem is. So if you can get a speaker or buzzer it would be useful....
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#18
Samm

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Just noticed your other post about the ram LED...
That LED lights up whenever there is power to the am sockets so the fact that it goes off then back on again simply suggests that the system has rebooted. Unfortunately I'm not sure it helps much with the diagnosis
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#19
tylerscool

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So... ur guess PSU or Motherboard?
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#20
Samm

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Hard to tell. To be honest it could be either but if I had to pick, I'd say motherboard.
Is there any way you can borrow an PSU from somewhere to test with the board, or any way you can test your PSU on another machine?
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#21
PedroDaGR8

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Just to contribute a little bit that I know. This power supply is a known bad model from a less than stellar company (this doesn't mean everything they make is bad just their PSUs). That being said, you would be really helped by picking up a speaker for your computer, just to hear the POST beeps. These will let you know where the failure is occurring, if it is a peripheral such as the CPU or the RAM etc, you will get post beeps that indicate that particular failure point (such as one long three short, or long short long short etc.). You have been getting great advice so far from Samm. Personally, I am more than anything worried that your PSU took out your motherboard.

One thing you can do is you can test the PSU relatively easily with a digital multimeter aka a DMM (I got a cheapie one from Harbor Freight tools for $4 out the door). You test it when booting as normal (first time with everything but the hard drive plugged in, no HD because if IT dies you lose all your data). To test it, you take the power plug from the hard drive (or any other molex peripheral plug) and place the black DMM lead into the pin of one of the black wires (ground) and place the red DMM lead in the pin on one of the yellow wires (12V). On a molex plug the pins are hollow so the lead should fit right in, you may need to hold it in place. Power up, if the voltage goes outside of 11.4-12.6V your PSU is hands down the problem, repeat with the 5 V line (remove the red DMM from the yellow wire and place it in the pin for the red wire(5V)), if this one varies outside of the range of 4.75-5.25V then once again the PSU is out side of ATX Spec and this is your culprit (more than likely). Ideally, these should hold at tighter tolerances of 11.7 to 12.3 for the 12V line and 4.85 to 5.15 for the 5V line, under heavy changes in load. No offense, your PSU is not a good one so I doubt it will do that. Great PSU will start at around 12 (often times 12.1 or 11.9 and vary 0.05V changing from 25% to 100% load). THere is one more line that can be tested, it is the 3.3V line, but is harder to get to as it is only available on the fat ATX power plug that goes to the motherboard. This means you have to wiggle the DMM lead down in to get contact with the pin from the top instead of from the front of the plug, doable but harder. This line has a usable range of 3.14 to 3.47.

Note: There is also a test you can do with the PSU removed, but especially for cheaper PSU it gives faulty readings as they need some load in order to be accurate.

If you wondered where I got the numbers. ATX spec says that the maximum ranges are +/- 5% of the voltage of the line. Ideal tends to be +/- 3% though, with some good manufactureres aiming for +/- 1%.
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#22
tylerscool

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@ samm no way i can test the board with another psu, haha I live in a small town and i have the best computer within miles, and the only one in my town that psu could handle the card

@ pedrodagr8- i will order the psu as soon as possible i have already ordered the speaker and will tell both of you what the beeps are, but for now I will wait ordered it last night, im going to trash the psu anyway it was only temporary because for 20$ what can u get. I am looking at a great power supply that i am considoring ordering soon,
http://www.newegg.co...N82E16817182070

this looks like a good item the psu i had sucked and i expected it to break within the year even though its only been 6 monthes it will be around 3-5 days before i get the speaker and i will tell u guys what it is

is it possible that both of my motherboards got fried i sure hope not as long its not one of my expensive componets like my motherboard, cpu, or graphics card then i would be quite happy

Edited by tylerscool, 01 December 2008 - 07:29 PM.

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#23
PedroDaGR8

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@ samm no way i can test the board with another psu, haha I live in a small town and i have the best computer within miles, and the only one in my town that psu could handle the card

@ pedrodagr8- i will order the psu as soon as possible i have already ordered the speaker and will tell both of you what the beeps are, but for now I will wait ordered it last night, im going to trash the psu anyway it was only temporary because for 20$ what can u get. I am looking at a great power supply that i am considoring ordering soon,
http://www.newegg.co...N82E16817182070

this looks like a good item the psu i had sucked and i expected it to break within the year even though its only been 6 monthes it will be around 3-5 days before i get the speaker and i will tell u guys what it is

is it possible that both of my motherboards got fried i sure hope not as long its not one of my expensive componets like my motherboard, cpu, or graphics card then i would be quite happy


Possible, honestly, but time will tell. As for your PSU choice, Rosewill's are hit or miss. They are neweggs private brand and are made by a whole slew of ODMs (original design maker). Some are good (seasonic, andyson (sometimes), CWT(sometimes), SFP (sparkle, fortron etc.)) othertimes they are garbage. This one using the UL file numer (E186010) is designed by ATNG POWER CO LTD. This company is a very middle of the road company. If you were willing to spend an extra $20, you could get a quality PSU http://www.newegg.co...N82E16817104049. This one is rated at 700W, bf you look at the amperages and compare them you will see the Rosewill DRASTICALLY over rates its values. For example on the 3.3V and 5V lines, the Rosewill outputs 3.3V=24A and 5V=30A and says this combined amperage equals 170W, while the FSP outputs 3.3V=36A and 5V=30A and says this wattage equals 150W. Someone is lying here, as for the rest of the rails, the FSP is 2A less on each of the 4 12V rails, thats it. On top of that, the FSP is modular (which means you only plug in the cables that you need and more importantly passed the HardOCP psu test (which is a really intensive test, to read it here). HardOCP modeled their PSU test after the tests conducted by a gentleman who goes by the name of jonnyguru. He is a God in the PSU testing world, he invented the concept of reviews that use a standardized stress test for PSU's including investigating ripple and noise as well as voltage levels. In my opinoin the FSP is HANDS DOWN worth the extra $20.

Edited by PedroDaGR8, 01 December 2008 - 08:26 PM.

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#24
Samm

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I think ordering a new PSU is a good idea. I've never heard of that PSU you have so don't know anything about it but if PedroDaGR8 reckons it's a bad one, then I expect he's right. Whether the board is dead or not, a decent PSU would be a good idea anyway so buy that & the speaker then try booting the board again.

I agree that FSP are very good but you'd probably be ok with one of the following as well, just so long as you get at minimum of 500W: Antec, enermax, silverstone, thermaltake, corsair
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#25
PedroDaGR8

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I think ordering a new PSU is a good idea. I've never heard of that PSU you have so don't know anything about it but if PedroDaGR8 reckons it's a bad one, then I expect he's right. Whether the board is dead or not, a decent PSU would be a good idea anyway so buy that & the speaker then try booting the board again.

I agree that FSP are very good but you'd probably be ok with one of the following as well, just so long as you get at minimum of 500W: Antec, enermax, silverstone, thermaltake, corsair


I agree with the minimum 500@, his system won't truly pull more than 500, but it is ideal to keep a PSU running in the 50-75% load range, where efficiency is the highest. As for the recommended companies, enermax, silverstone and corsair are almsot always great PSUs (especially Corsair), antec can be good but they have had some bad ones too (the Neo's, which were their flagship line used garbage Fuhjjyu capacitors and were eventually killing peoples systems), thermaltake typically is the same quality as antec in that some are great some not so much.

Before buying a powersupply, check if HardOCP or jonnyguru.com have reviewed the PSU model you are looking at buying. Their reviews are really indepth and they typically push the device to its LIMIT, testing noise on the rails, its ability to output in low voltage situations (100v instead of 120V), various load amounts, transient testing, efficiency rating, thermal testing etc. I really trust their review methodology as they don't just hook the PSU to a computer and use a DMM and say yep it is inspec it passes. They use customizable resistive loads, $8000+ PSU testing equipment, oscilliscopes etc.

In my humble opinion here are how the brands work out (Some of these will not be available in ATX psu's or will be really pricey, this is just a general list of trustable brands):

Ideal (almost everything they make is good):
  • Delta
  • Emacs
  • Zippy
  • Silverstone
  • FSP Group (under the names Fortron, FSP, Sparkle, Superflower)
  • PC Power and Cooling
  • Corsair
Mostly Good:
  • Enermax
Mainly Good:
  • Antec
  • Thermaltake
Hit or Miss:
  • Rosewill
Avoid like the plague:
  • Deer (known to catch fire or explode on occasion)
  • L&C
  • RaidMAX
  • PowMAX
  • Allied
  • many of the others who mainly are very flashy looking with large amounts of LEDs and overspeced outputs.


EDIT: Also that FSP that I recommended went back up in price it was $120 yesterday. Along with that, the 750Watt model of that rosewill has a LOT of complaints about failure after 1 year, so I would strongly avoid it. I am helping a guy in another thread in this forum who has the 750watt model and his appears to be going out (thats why I know about the 750 watt one :))

Edited by PedroDaGR8, 02 December 2008 - 12:27 PM.

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#26
gclipse02

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It won't cause the computer to not boot, but it will stop you from hearing vital POST beep codes to diagnose a problem. Try installing one in the proper location on your mobo. I'm reading this pretty late in your post, so I apologize if this is redundant, but...

It seems your hard drive is the common denominator in this problem?? Sounds kinda crazy but then again this isn't a common problem. Or maybe it's another component. But it seems that if there was one component that you've kept consistently installing that is freakishly shorted for whatever reason, it could cause a motherboard short every time you start fresh? Just say, for example, that the hard drive was installed every time before you tested a new component... and the hard drive has some crazy short that causes the voltage spike to kill the mobo, you would seem to have the same problem over and over.
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#27
tylerscool

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It won't cause the computer to not boot, but it will stop you from hearing vital POST beep codes to diagnose a problem. Try installing one in the proper location on your mobo. I'm reading this pretty late in your post, so I apologize if this is redundant, but...

It seems your hard drive is the common denominator in this problem?? Sounds kinda crazy but then again this isn't a common problem. Or maybe it's another component. But it seems that if there was one component that you've kept consistently installing that is freakishly shorted for whatever reason, it could cause a motherboard short every time you start fresh? Just say, for example, that the hard drive was installed every time before you tested a new component... and the hard drive has some crazy short that causes the voltage spike to kill the mobo, you would seem to have the same problem over and over.


I also thought this was the problem at first and im going to try it after the PSU but this cause me to have to get another copy of windows vista which still goes around 150$ so idk because ive never heard of this problem. but ill tell u guys what happens with the beeps
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#28
gclipse02

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Ah, you don't have to buy a whole new license for Vista, just obtain a copy of the DVD that is used for the OS install. The license is a serial key which works with the CD, but not integrated. I definitely wouldn't buy another license for Vista when all I need is the OS cd. I would call Microsoft and pay for a set of the dvds from them before I would buy a whole new install of it.
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#29
tylerscool

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Ah, you don't have to buy a whole new license for Vista, just obtain a copy of the DVD that is used for the OS install. The license is a serial key which works with the CD, but not integrated. I definitely wouldn't buy another license for Vista when all I need is the OS cd. I would call Microsoft and pay for a set of the dvds from them before I would buy a whole new install of it.


any idea of the cost
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#30
gclipse02

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Not really. I'd GUESS around $30 or $40... but there's no telling with MS. Or maybe someone you know would happen to have a set of install CDs. As long as they didn't come from some proprietary computer manufacturer (D*ll), they'll be able to work with your install. And then are other ways of finding install CDs that AREN'T hacked but legitimate .iso images of the dvds... that's between you and google though
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