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I guarentee this is the hardest computer mystery you will find on the


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#31
tylerscool

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Not really. I'd GUESS around $30 or $40... but there's no telling with MS. Or maybe someone you know would happen to have a set of install CDs. As long as they didn't come from some proprietary computer manufacturer (D*ll), they'll be able to work with your install. And then are other ways of finding install CDs that AREN'T hacked but legitimate .iso images of the dvds... that's between you and google though


I know where I can find these Dvds without torrent but ive heard that the serial on there isnt the correct install serial instead a product number is this true?
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#32
gclipse02

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I know where I can find these Dvds without torrent but ive heard that the serial on there isnt the correct install serial instead a product number is this true?


Not sure what you're saying... but here's the deal with that stuff. They don't include the serial number IN the dvd. That would mean they have to create a different CD every time. They include it WITH the cd, on the back of the packaging. As long as you're using your original Serial to reinstall the same version of windows, I don't see how it would be illegal to download the .iso to save your computer.
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#33
Samm

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Hey guys

Thanks for your input gclipse02 but could we just concentrate on getting his system to a point where it's able to POST before we get carried away with the technicalities of installing Vista? It kinda seems like trying to run before you can walk otherwise... :)
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#34
gclipse02

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Hey guys

Thanks for your input gclipse02 but could we just concentrate on getting his system to a point where it's able to POST before we get carried away with the technicalities of installing Vista? It kinda seems like trying to run before you can walk otherwise... :)


Only brought that up to make sure Tylerscool didn't buy a whole new Vista license. No sense in throwing away his money.

For some reason, I didn't see yours and Pedros previous posts about PSU advice... oh well
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#35
Samm

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No worries, and I appreciate your assistance. Just didn't want to make things anymore complicated than they already are or more than they have to be!
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#36
tylerscool

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Well I think the Problem has been confirmed and I don't think we have to worry about re-installing vista. I took the speaker and put it in, and i was listening good this time to hear the beaps. And a heard cracking, look at the power supply and it was sparking, i took it out and tryed plugging it into the wall by itself, and each time i pluged it in it started a fire. What luck, about hearing a small crackle that could have burned down my house. Now it is sitting its little Time out corner where is death will be met the redneck way by shooting roman candles at it. But before we do this, can you confirm the PSU is the problem?

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#37
PedroDaGR8

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Well I think the Problem has been confirmed and I don't think we have to worry about re-installing vista. I took the speaker and put it in, and i was listening good this time to hear the beaps. And a heard cracking, look at the power supply and it was sparking, i took it out and tryed plugging it into the wall by itself, and each time i pluged it in it started a fire. What luck, about hearing a small crackle that could have burned down my house. Now it is sitting its little Time out corner where is death will be met the redneck way by shooting roman candles at it. But before we do this, can you confirm the PSU is the problem?



Hahaha, you need more than roman candles. I have seen people take .38's and 12-gauges to their bad PSUs. Unfortunately, we won't be able to tell with out another PSU to make sure the mobo is OK. A good PSU will isolate itself from the motherboard when it fails, a cheap one will take the mobo with it. Some cheapie ones though do make sure to not take out the mobo when they do fail, so even though yours failed I can't tell you if anything else died with it.

By the way, do you have a UPS (Uninterruptable Power Source)?
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#38
tylerscool

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OK i will be getting the PSU within the next few weeks, but i do not know about this Uninterruptable Power Source, if it has to do with the case no. I have not changed my case since i got it, even though i have changed virtualy everything else i still have an hp case.
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#39
PedroDaGR8

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OK i will be getting the PSU within the next few weeks, but i do not know about this Uninterruptable Power Source, if it has to do with the case no. I have not changed my case since i got it, even though i have changed virtualy everything else i still have an hp case.


Its otherwise known as a battery backup. While not entirely necessary, the line interactive (aka Automatic voltage regulation) type help your power supply run better by smoothign out all of the spikes and noise.
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#40
Samm

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Marvellous. I love cheap [bleep] power supplies...
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#41
tylerscool

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http://www.newegg.co...N82E16817163109

Okay I ordered a Silverstone PSU as you requested me to get. I will be getting it for Christmas (im only 14 lol) and ill try to install it the first day.
This is a good PSU right and also, does it come with the 8 pin connector or the 4 pin both work but i think with the 8 pin it might be more efficent.
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#42
PedroDaGR8

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http://www.newegg.co...N82E16817163109

Okay I ordered a Silverstone PSU as you requested me to get. I will be getting it for Christmas (im only 14 lol) and ill try to install it the first day.
This is a good PSU right and also, does it come with the 8 pin connector or the 4 pin both work but i think with the 8 pin it might be more efficent.


I can't find the review (jonnyguru had his site updated and some reviews got lost in the update) but jonnyguru mentions that this is a solid unit, so you should be good.

By the way if you want to read a funny review of some crappy low budget PSUs see here. Only ONE of those PSUs was able to output its stated wattage, a 300W Delta (the rest said they were 400-650 watts, but some were wimpier than the 300W Delta). Delta is actually a good manufacturer who builds mainly for OEMs, this one was from an eMachines desktop. It did exactly what it said it would within all ATX specs.

The rest, not so much.

Edited by PedroDaGR8, 14 December 2008 - 12:27 PM.

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#43
tylerscool

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Hey quick question before I get my PSU<is the mobo the only thing it could have taken out because i have 150$ right now so if the PSU doesn't fix it i will be ordering a new motherboard but could it have taken anything else out with it?
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#44
dji

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Yes, it is possible the PSU took graphic card or motherborads or CPU. In one of the previous posts you said you are the only guy in area with PSU capable to power graphic card. So I'm guessing you have some of newer graphics.
Please tell us which graphic you have.

1. Can you confirm that you know the difference between 8-pins SLI power connector and the 8-pins CPU connector (both look same but accidental changing of them could cause permanent damage to some of following: motherboard, PSU, CPU, graphic card)
2. Can you confirm that no one (computer man as you said or friends) has ever accidentally change those two?

If those didn't happen then probably other components are fine but there is no guarantee for sure.

You should get advice for new PSU according to your graphic card.

For example 750W PSU is required for system contains 9800GX2
1000W PSU is required for system contains 9800GX2 + Tesla C870
1250W PSU is required for system contains 9800GX2 + Tesla C870 + 4 x 1TB hard drives

The possible scenario you could have before PSU died:
1. you made system starving power from your PSU and it work at the edge of PSU limit (such configurations usually have a lot of instability which could be detected by monitoring voltages which are in such situation out of 5% range tolerance.)

2. You made connecting new device (hard disk) which needs an extra power over the limit of your already screaming PSU
Now this moment is crucial. All PSUs (even those cheap) have built-in current limiter. It's function is to prevent devices connected to the PSU consume more current than the PSU can provide.
If you have an expensive PSU, such situation will be followed with continual BEEEEEEEEP from buzzer integrated in the PSU. But
what will exact happen with cheap one depends on integrated circuits used in PSU.
Following is possible:
I). During current limiter activation all voltage lines are up (completely unhooked)
II). During current limiter activation only voltage lines that trigger the current limiter are unhooked (partially unhooked)

It can be recognized as follows:
in the first situation there is no fans working except fan(s) integrated in the PSU, no LED lighting no sounds from hard drives etc.
in the second case (if line of 5V or line of 12V caused current limiter activation) motherboard will be served with voltages required for some integrated circuits which handle indicators LEDs on motherboard and buzzer and such situation will be also followed with long BEEEEEP. But you said you don't have a buzzer so even without it you can recognize it by LEDs. Also if 5V line caused limiter activation, 12V still should be presented so fans also work. Explain what exactly you'd noticed upon new hard disk connected.

3. Systems configured to run at the edge of PSU power limit ALWAYS make PSU overheating. That overheating could cause the current limiter IC died. It can not be noticed without connecting PSU on special equipment for current measuring or opening PSU, detecting the proper IC, find it's data sheet and measure voltages on it's pins according to data sheet. Even with dead IC, PSU will serve all voltages properly and complete system will work fine until situation where you try to consume more power than the PSU can provide.
When that happens and limiter is dead following is possible:

All PSUs has built in FUSEs which will burn in such situation and prevent damage. Unfortunately I opened a lot of cheap PSUs made in China which haven't fuse at all. There are places for them on PSU board but they are replaced with single wire which will not burn in such situation. So if you consume very small amount of current over the PSU limit (connecting HD or another small consumer) it still can work because MOSFETs in PSU usually have current level 20% higher than limiter is adjusted to and used fuses are also for that higher level too. So if you read from PSU label it can provide for example 25A at 5V line that means the current limiter is adjusted to 25A and MOSFETs (fuses too) can handle little bit more. What exactly will happen depends on used MOSFETs. Expensive MOSFETs has
good voltage linearity over entire range and that will allow system works fine as long as voltage drops are in 5% tolerance for 5V and 12V lines and CPU voltages lines don't go out voltages required for proper CPU working (depends on CPU) and as long as PSU overheating is avoided by changing dissipation heat sink or/and adding an extra PSU fan if possible (PSU tweaking).
Opposite to that, cheaper MOSFETS extremely lose voltage linearity when consumed current get closer to their limits which will cause voltages probably go out of 10% tolerance range (or even more) and that will not be enough good for system to work properly. Such PSU will definitely die it is just question of time.
Running PSU in such condition for a few seconds or minutes shouldn't be the problem if PSU is started cold. So even if you had system working, you must turned it off before connecting new hard drive meaning PSU could get it cold enough during that.

From the fact that your PSU is literaly "burnt" it is obvious the current limiter on it died long ago before that and FUSEs were not present (read shortwired) so
answer on question Does some other component died with PSU is just guessing. But, you can take an extra precaution steps when new PSU come:

1. First test will be testing motherboard:
- Let PSU be unplugged from mains (unplugged it from wall) all the time !!!
- remove graphic card, processor (take care when removing heat sink) and all memory modules from motherboard, disconnect all hard drives, cd roms, floppy etc from motherboard (don't connect them even to PSU)
- remove all cables from motherboard (reset wires, HD led wire etc. , SATA cables IDE cables ... everything)
- find a temporary jumper (from old hard disk or from old piece of hardware or you can temporary use jumper from you CDROM or DVD)
- put it on the place where cable from POWER SWITCH normally should be connected
- connect buzzer to proper place (if motherboard hasn't integrated on it)
- connect only large motherboard connector PSU (don't connect CPU power 8-pin (or 4 pins) connector)
- if new PSU has switch on it put it to ON position (but leave main chord unplugged)

After this setup you have connected only motherboard to PSU, buzzer to motherboard, and jumper on place where POWER SWITCH normally should be connected

Now, plug the main chord, wait for a few seconds and unplug it.
During that time there should be sound on buzzer and some activity on motherboard's leds and you should see (or hear) the fan on PSU is working. If that happens then everything is probably fine with motherboard and you can go to test2.

If buzzer didn't make beep and there is no activity with leds something is wrong. Steps over that depends on does PSU fan worked during test or not.
If it worked then you can continue with test2
if PSU fan didn't work (symptoms for computers damaged by PSU failure or thunder strike main power lines in close distance while computer power chord is connected to mains even if computer hasn't worked) motherboard is dead but there is still possibility to make it works. I can suggest to do that ONLY and ONLY if you are sure PSU has integrated buzzer and current limiter which is not dead. Only in such case you can do:

- remove large PSU connector from motherboard.
- Find the only green wire on it (it should be 4th wire on the half closer to connector clip looking from right to left when connector is oriented up-side-down (wires are down holes are up), some rare PSU has it gray)
- near that green wire there should be black wire, it is 3rd wire looking at the same way
- short-connect those two wires (remove small piece of isolation on both wires and connect those two places by some wire and isolate that place with isolating tape)
- don't connect connector to motherboard, just plug the PSU mains for a while. You should see fan on PSU works. Remove the main chord from wall
- connect such prepared connector into motherboard
- plug the mains for few seconds
- unplug the mains
if you didn't see LEDs activity or heard buzzer, motherboard is dead and requires service.
If you heard buzzer from PSU (if it has one), motherboard consumes to much power and it is definite sign it is dead and requires service.

If you saw LEDs activity or heard the sound from buzzer connected to motherboard you can go to test2 but you should know your motherboard has burnt IC responsible for waking up computer from power off state. That IC damage is usual thing on computers damaged by PSU failure (where fuses are replaced with wires) or irregular voltage levels on mains power lines. With such damage you can not:

- wake up your computer by events on LAN, USB, mouse, keyboard etc.
- wake up your computer by power switch from front side
- you can not turn off computer by executing shutdown command
- you can not put it in the sleep state

But you can turn it by back PSU switch if PSU has it or you can modify short-connect you've just made by connecting two wires from front side power switch to it. To do that, remove isolation, remove wire you used to make short-connect, then one wire from switch goes to green wire (isolate that place separately) other wire from front side switch goes to black wire and isolate that place too. Before that just check you have switch (not taster) on the front side. Difference is: switch has two state. when it is pushed it changes from off to on and when pushed again it changes from on to off. Taster, when pushed, it is on only while your finger pushing it and when you release it, it is off. You need switch for proper working.

2. TEST2

- remove temporary jumper from motherboard (put it back on place where it was before)
- remove old thermoisolation paste from processor and it's heat sink, clean both until you get nice smooth surfaces
- put processor on motherboard
- put new thermoisolation paste on it's surface but not too much ensure paste is equally distributed over all metal surface
- mount heat sink on it
- connect CPU fan to it's connector on motherboard (or to PSU if it has simple nylon connector )
- connect 8-pins CPU power cable from PSU to proper place on motherboard (take care not to use 8-pin SLI connector which looks the same)
- reset CMOS memory (check motherboard manual to see how to do that) to default settings
- if you must tweaked PSU motherboard cable (as described above) then you should skip followed line
Connect Power Switch from front side panel to proper place on motherboard

Now, plug the mains power and turn on power switch.
You should heard one or several beeps from buzzer connected to motherboard and see leds activity on motherboards, CPU fan also should working and PSU buzzer if exists shouldn't beeping.
turn off power switch and remove mains from wall !!!

If you saw LEDs activity and heard buzzer sound (from buzzer connected to motherboard) and CPU fan worked you can go to test3

If you heard sound from PSU integrated buzzer (if it has one) or there was no LEDs activity and no sounds from buzzer connected to motherboard and CPU fan didn't work something is wrong with CPU.
That is situation when CPU tried to consume too much power (something is short-connected inside of CPU meaning it is dead) and current limiter in PSU not allowing that.
The only way is to buy new CPU. Do not try next tests until you replace CPU.

3. Test3

- put memory modules into memory slots and ensure side clips are clicked

Now, plug the mains power and turn on power switch.
You should hear one or several beeps from buzzer connected to motherboard and see LEDs activity on motherboards, CPU fan also should working. PSU buzzer if exists shouldn't beeping.
turn off power switch and remove mains from wall

If you saw LEDs activity and heard buzzer sound (from buzzer connected to motherboard) and CPU fan worked you can go to test4

If you heard sound from PSU integrated buzzer (if it has one) or there was no leds activity and no sounds from buzzer connected to motherboard and CPU fan doesn't work something is wrong with memory. This is very rare situation where memory died on such way to get PSU current limiter activated. I found only two such cases of thousand in my 25 year experience.
That is situation when memory tried to consume too much power (something is short-connected inside of one or more chips in one or more memory modules) and current limiter in PSU not allowing that.
If you have more memory modules you can repeat this test connecting only single module and do it test again for each module separately.
If you find test passes for some modules it means that module is OK and you can continue only with those ok modules

4. TEST4

Some newer graphics cards have LED indicators on it near power connector (or around it like Gigabyte models) which will light red if power coming into graphic card is not enough.
Tesla series for example has no light indication, it has it's own buzzer which "screams" if card is not properly powered.
In such complex situation you must be able to recognize which buzzer beeps and which are turned off. If you suspect on some, just touch it with a finger and you will hear frequency changing in sound meaning that buzzer makes sound.
Some graphic cards require double SLI power (one 8-pins and one 6-pins connector) some other require two 6-pins connectors
Some graphic cards comes in packages with SLI power adapters and beginners make HUGE mistake when connecting those adapters to two nylon connectors where both nylon connectors reside at the same power line from PSU. THAT IS BAD IDEA. The explanation is:

Newer graphics card requires over 200W (or even more) at 12V which means consumed current is about 20A (or even more). Standard wire width on PSU outputs could handle up to 8A (in most cases even less because of cheap nylon connectors). That is the reason why all PSU have more power lines outputs. Even if all of those lines are connected at the same point inside PSU (cheap PSUs) more of them means the overall wire resistance is decreased which means current through each particular wire is reduced which also means the voltage drops is decreased. Lets for a moment suppose the PSU outputs has just one wire for 12V one wire for 5V and one wire for the Ground. Each of those wires should be 6-7 mm in width to handle 25A (or more) from PSU to other devices and to avoid voltage drops. That would be very unpractical for wiring. Standard PSUs usually has two nylon connectors per line output (meaning you can connect two hard disks or hard disk and DVD per single power line). In some cases there is three nylon connectors per line output and that third should be used for external fans because they do not consume too much power. If wider wires are used then all 3 nylons could be connected to devices where overall current consumption on that line is not greater than 8A (8A for 5V and 8A for 12V). But in situation where you are using SLI adapters which only use 12V if you connect both to the same power line from PSU then voltage
drops can be over 1.5V if wire is 30 cm in length. That means that wire will start to heat and graphic card will get 10.5V (12V is required). So if you must use those adapters (if your PSU doesn't have SLI power output) make sure those two nylon connectors from adapter are connected to two nylon connectors from PSU where those two reside on separated power lines from PSU.

And now the test.

- Put the graphic card in PCIe slot and connect SLI power connector to it.
- Do not connect monitor to graphic card yet.

Now, plug the mains power and turn on power switch.
listen the PSU buzzer if it exists or buzzer in graphic card also look leds on graphic card if exist.
turn off power switch and remove mains from wall

If you heard sound from PSU integrated buzzer (if it has one) graphic card want to consume more power than the PSU can provide or graphic card is dead.
If you are sure the PSU has enough power for your graphic card (check graphic card manufacturer recommendation) that means your graphic is dead because you are not using any other nylon connector from PSU (hard drives are not connected, dvd are not connected, only board and graphics)

This situation slightly differs from previous tests because newer PSUs have partially unhooking mechanism on SLI voltage outputs meaning other voltages will probably be fine and pass through PSU so you can see motherboards leds activity and heard sounds from buzzer connected to motherboard even if the SLI power line fails. Buzzer in PSU (if exists) will beep at the same time with buzzer on motherboard.
If there was no LEDs activity during test and no sounds from buzzer connected to motherboard and CPU fan doesn't work that means your PSU has completely unhooking current limiter mechanism and no voltage line pass through it.
Doesn't matter which case both mean that graphic card want to consume more power than PSU can provide.
The crucial point at this step is not to use any other nylon connector from the PSU! If you ask why this is an explanation:
Almost all SLI PSUs have paired SLI power lines with some lines with nylon connectors or SATA power connectors. It is useful in systems where SLI power is not required (almost all server configurations) because those power could be used for extra hard drives or other devices. On most PSUs those paired lines are not marked so you accidentally can use those to power hard drive in parallel with SLI which will cause SLI to fail. So diagnostic will be the same as described here in TEST4. On latter tests you'll learn how to detect those lines and avoid them while using SLI power lines.

If PSU buzzer didn't make beep it means PSU works fine (current limiter is not triggered). If your PSU doesn't have integrated buzzer then you must looks indicators on graphic card. If your graphic doesn't have indicators (no buzzer and no LEDs) then you should look at motherboards LEDs. If there was LEDs activity during test that means mother boards gets power from PSU and that means: PSU has partially unhooked mechanism OR your graphic card is ok. Doesn't matter which case you can continue with test5

If you didn't see motherboards LEDs activity and you are sure PSU has enough power for your graphic card that means your PSU has completely unhooking mechanism and your graphic is dead. Do not continue until replace graphic card.

5. Test5

- connect the monitor to graphic card
- ensure the monitor is powered to mains and monitor switch is turned on

Now, plug the mains power and turn on power switch.
wait for a 10 seconds and look does the monitor goes on
You should see some text on screen (or booting logo graphics)
turn off power switch and remove mains from wall

if you got text on screen everything is fine for now and you can go to test6
if your monitor didn't power up and your video card has two RGB (or DVI) outputs try to connect monitor to second RGB (DVI) output and repeat test.

if your monitor still hasn't powered on and you are sure PSU has enough power for your graphic card, that means PSU worked with partially triggered current limiter mechanism and graphic card want to consume more power then PSU can provide. Your graphic is definitely dead. Do not continue until replace graphic card.

6. Test6

- Connect other boards (sound cards if any, modems if any, LANs if any) to motherboard
- Connect mouse and keyboard
- external modems if any etc.

Now, plug the mains power and turn on power switch.
wait for a 10 seconds and look does the monitor goes on
You should see some text on screen (or booting logo graphics)
turn off power switch and remove mains from wall

this will probably be ok but if not, you must check each particular component repeating test with single component connected until you find which of them is failed. This is necessary because your previous PSU is completely burnt and it could made more damage to your system than you think. Continue only with devices which are passed the test.

7. TEST7

- connect only one hard drive (IDE or SATA doesn't matter) and connect it to PSU and to motherboard
Now, plug the mains power and turn on power switch.
wait for a 10 seconds and look does the monitor goes on
You should see some text on screen (or booting logo graphics)

if so go to test8
if not, then it is possible that you are accidentally pick nylon connector (or SATA power connector) which is paired with SLI power lines. Disconnect it from hard drive, take a label or colored marker and mark it for future upgrades just to know to not picking it again.
Take another SATA (or nylon IDE) connector from other power line and connect it to hard drive repeat test until you get test passed.
If you tried all connectors and test never passed then your har disk is dead.

There is one more possible situation. If your PSU can provide a lot of power to the SLI power lines and your graphic card doesn't reqire all of it then you can find your hard disk can work even if it is connected on SLI paired power lines. But that doesn't mean both hard drives or one hard drive and DVD could. That depends on your PSU and power output to SLI lines and also depends on your graphic card. Some newer series like NV9400 or NV9500 have reduced GPU power because they have just 4 or 8 computing cores in GPU while 9800GTX has 16 and 9800GX2 has 32. GTX280 has 30 and so on.
That means it is possible all of your hard drives and DVDs could work properly even if some of them are connected to paired lines if graphic card doesn't require all SLI power.
If not so then you'll find at some point your system will not start while repeating this step by adding every peace of hardware which is powered from nylon (or SATA) connectors. In such situation you must find winning combination and mark it to know for future system upgrades.

Also if you are using IDE hard drives and/or IDE CD ROM or DVD take care on jumpers on it. IDE devices connected to the same IDE cable must have proper combination of MASTER, SLAVE selections or system could refuse to power up. If you want to avoid that or you are unsure just make jumpers to ALL IDE devices to CS (Cable Selected) position.

Also if you are using SATA2 drives you must be sure motherboard supports it. Only in that case you can put it (them) in 3Gb/s mode usually removing single very small jumper on it. (read the label on hard disk) If motherboard supports only SATA drives and your Hard Drives are SATA2 then drives MUST be set to work in 1.5Gb/s mode (usually leaving jumper in default position)

8. TEST8

- connect other hard drive if any and repeat test7

9. TEST9

- connect any DVD or CD if any and repeat test7

10. Now your system is ready for booting, make required BIOS setup if any
11. if your previous system disk pass the test7 then you should boot normally otherwise if it failed then you must reinstall OS

Finally, you did it.
At the end, sorry for my bad English.
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#45
tylerscool

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thanks everyone!!! well today expecting my new power supply, i got a whole new computer, im going to put my 9800 gtx and 3.0ghz and all will be fine i also ordered the same power supply for my computer so it will be good, thanks everyone who helped me and spend there time on me :)
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