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reason why clock keeps losing time?


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#16
Digerati

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These are lithium batteries that "should" hold their voltage for years. The CMOS battery has but one thing to do - keep a very small "trickle" voltage on the CMOS memory module (chip, IC). CMOS is NOT a PC term, BTW, as these complementary metal–oxide–semiconductors have been around much longer than PCs and used in all sorts of electronics.

The unique quality of CMOS memory is it remembers it's stored data, but only if that trickle voltage is present. Remove the voltage and it almost instantly forgets everything (resets). It takes very little to hold the data so the battery is never under a heavy load. They typically last at least 3 years, but often much more. In theory, you should be able to leave a computer off for years, and still boot with no problems from the CMOS. But, it is possible to get a flawed battery right out of the packaging too.

Is there any point? Yes. Files are created, changed, and saved all the time. If your system clock if off, the timestamps will be off and may cause confusion during program updates, email, or with changes to user documents. So if nothing else, Spending $5 for the good chance of never having to worry about resetting the date and time every time you (and every other user) use the machine seems well worth it to me. And from a troubleshooting aspect, a small investment to eliminate the battery from the equation.
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#17
123Runner

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If you recall, they already sent him one and it was installed and he is still having a problem.

As we have suggested, he should try another before we can say the issue is now a board (in case what they sent was flawed).
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#18
Digerati

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If you recall, they already sent him one and it was installed and he is still having a problem.

As we have suggested, he should try another before we can say the issue is now a board (in case what they sent was flawed).

Ummm, right. :)

And that's why he said later,

I will have to phone tomorrow and find out which battery to get and try that first and if that doesn't work I'll send the whole thing back.

For which after wondering if it was worth it, I said yes, for less than $5 it is.

I also said earlier these batteries "should" last for years, the quote marks to suggest there could be early failures. Not sure what I was suppose to recall. :)
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#19
123Runner

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Not a problem, didn't know if we were getting caught up in what was going on. We all have our days and sometimes get lost (a little) with the posts we respond to. I know I will admit to that.
As long as we are all on the same page/path and we are helping the poster.
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#20
struggling artist

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hi again you guys, thanks for taking so much trouble to help me... when I asked "is it worth it?" i was referring to changing the interval for the internet time synch, as I wasn't sure if there would be any point if my pc is often off for hours. I will definitely be trying a new battery anyway. p.s. I'm a "she"!!
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#21
Digerati

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Oops! Sorry for gender mixup.

As to what you really meant - the registry change, it will not keep your computer from forgetting the time completely, so probably not.
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#22
123Runner

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Changing the internet time in your case is not worth it.

Also apologize for the referance to "he". Why we automatically think "he" is a mystery. No ill will intended.
Please forgive.

Good luck and please let us know how you make out.

123runner
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#23
struggling artist

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Ok, I'll just go ahead with the battery change. You are totally forgiven for the gender mixup!! Thanks again for all your help.
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#24
Major Payne

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Just a side note. Many times touching the bare metal case to eliminate or reduce static electricity problems doesn't work after the ac plug has been unplugged as there is no longer a ground connected to the case. That makes touching the case ineffective in some cases.

Just one of many articles:

Avoid Static Damage to Your PC

Note:

To avoid the ravages of static damage, your body and the components you're working with (add-in card, RAM, PC case, and so on) must be at the same electrical potential. And the easiest way to do this is to make sure that all static charges are drained to ground, an object connected to the Earth, which can harmlessly absorb the static charge. Until recently, that wasn't difficult. Since all standard AC wiring includes a common ground, you used to be able to ground yourself by touching the case of your PC while it was switched off but still plugged into the wall outlet. However, since today's PCs have voltage flowing through their motherboards whenever they're plugged in (5 volts direct current are used for switching the PC on and off), it's all too easy to accidentally short something and zap your motherboard, without static being involved at all. That's why it's essential that PCs be unplugged when you work with them.


Basically, it's trying to say that without a ground path, the static electricity may not be drained.
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#25
Digerati

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Just a side note. Many times touching the bare metal case to eliminate or reduce static electricity problems doesn't work after the ac plug has been unplugged as there is no longer a ground connected to the case. That makes touching the case ineffective in some cases.

Basically, it's trying to say that without a ground path, the static electricity may not be drained.

Sorry, but that is incorrect and it is extremely important (as in life or death) to not misunderstand the message. Note the last sentence of your quote, it specifically says to unplug.

Damage to the computer by ESD comes from a difference of potential between you and the computer, and NOT between you and ground. Therefore, it is essential for you to be at the same level as the case, and you do this buy touching bare metal of the case - and by touching the case you DO completely discharge the static. However, just squirming in your clothes you will start to build the static again, therefore you must keep touching the case to prevent another build up.

Electronics 101 starts with safety first and safely dictates you ALWAYS unplug from the wall before reaching in. Why? Because anything that plugs into the wall can kill. NEVER - as in NEVER EVER trust a power supply (possibly one made by underaged forced labor in some deplorable factory overseen by corrupt government officials) to be properly wired. And trust the $.10 power cord even less. NEVER - as in NEVER EVER trust a power cord to provide ground.

That was a lousy article 7 years ago when written. It still is. It wrongly suggested that before (referring to the old AT style power supplies where the actual power switch was wired to the front panel) it was okay to leave the power cord connected to maintain a path to ground. That was NEVER right - it was a shortcut used by untrained people pretending to be technicians. It is NEVER right to assume a power cord provides a good ground. If you feel you must attach to ground, use a "grounding strap", a wire or cable specifically designed to "ground" the equipment you are working on without having deadly voltages running along in the same cable. Note that grounding straps attach to facility grounds, and not wall outlets where voltage is present either.

I wrote a Discussion Tip at Geekstogo's sister site, WhattheTech that goes into more detail - Maintenance, Safety, Cleaning, and ESD.
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#26
Major Payne

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Deleted by me.
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#27
Digerati

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YOU MISUNDERSTAND. IF no ground, the static discharge has NO place to go so you and the case are still at a difference of potential as no current will flow.

With all due respect, Sir, that is woefully incorrect and the source of your confusion. Please understand, I respect your 50 years, but I've been a degreed and certified electronics technician for Air Force air traffic control facilities and DoD secure networks since 1972 and have taught electronics, electronics safety, troubleshooting and repair, ESD, ESD control and ESD prevention.

I would ask, if the static charge does not go anywhere, what happens to it when you shuffle across the carpet and touch the door knob in a wooden door? By your statement above, all those 1000s of volts would still be there - stored somewhere, somehow in the door or door knob. Does that sound right? No, of course not. Door knobs and wooden doors are not capacitors. They are not batteries. They don't store electrical energy, they don't hold a charge. Doors and doorknobs are not wired to earth ground. So where does that energy go? It is converted and discharged in the form of heat - the mini-lightning bolt that is so destructive to sensitive devices.

If you touch an object - any object - or touch any two objects together, the "difference of potential" between those two objects becomes zero volts - a "common ground" is established between them. That's the key!!! It does not matter if that common ground is 10,000 volts above Earth ground, or 10,000 feet above the Earth in the air. Once it is neutralized, the common ground prevents any difference from building and there is no current flow between those two objects - again, the key, as there's nothing to discharge.

It does NOT matter, 1 iota, if there is no path to Earth ground when doing maintenance inside a computer (unless testing for live voltages). If that were the case, there would be no such thing as avionics, or even automotive electronics.

Once you have discharged yourself on the case with the PC plugged in, then you can unplug it and work safely.

Again, that is incorrect. As noted, simply moving in your clothes when pulling that plug will knock loose free electrons, and start the process of building up a static charge in your body again. The problem with ESD sensitive devices is they can be destroyed by a discharge so small, humans are not even aware a discharge occurred. But it did. Humans don't see the spark and they don't hear the snap. This is why you must stay in frequent contact with the case so there is NO difference. With no difference, there can be no flow, or arcs.

Yes, the best solution to prevent any ESD problems is to use grounding straps to connect you, the bench, the computer, and the floor mat together creating a "common" ground, then to a certified "facility" ground (NEVER a wall outlet!). But most folks don't have properly wired, professional test benches in their homes, or certified grounds. Most people, sadly, just assume their wall outlet is properly wired and grounded and never even test the wiring in the outlet, or use a AC Outlet/Ground Fault Indicator Tester. :)

The cases are all metal and you do NOT have to reach in to discharge any static electricity while the power cord is plugged in

Again, this is totally incorrect. First, you NEVER reach in before discharging - you always discharge to bare metal first, then reach in. Second, it is not static in the computer you need to be worried about, it is static in your body! Third, the point of discharging your body to the case is so you don't discharge your static charge through the ESD sensitive device, such as memory modules and the CPU.

And once again, NEVER - as in never-ever assume any power cable is safe. Never assume the ground wire in a power cable will protect you when there's deadly voltages running through the same 25 cent power cable! Additionally, never, as in NEVER EVER assume the wall outlet is properly connected to Earth ground. WARNING!: MANY older homes and buildings only have two-conductor house wiring! Just because the outlet has been upgraded to accept a 3-prong plug does not mean the outlet housing/box is attached to a big fat copper ground wire, or that the copper ground wire goes to ground. Power cables are cheap, injected plastic molded devices designed to provide power. They are no substitute for a ground strap - a safety device designed to save your life and protect equipment. I also note that using the power cord for ground assumes there is a good, tight, mechanical connection, with zero resistance, between the PSU housing and the PC case. Bad assumption.

While ESD (electro-static discharge - static shocks) have been around forever, an understanding of ESD is relatively new as vacuum tube technologies are much more immune to the effect. It is only when they started jamming 1000s of semi-conductors in to tiny integrated circuits, that where then being damaged by improper handling, did a full understanding of ESD come about.

I am NOT suggesting that the power cord remain plugged in when working on your PC although I do all the time and have for the last 50 years.

Then Sir, you have been risking death for 50 years. Power cords IN NO WAY prevent static discharges building up in our bodies, nor do they prevent discharges from occurring, or doing damage. But more importantly, power cords should never be trusted to keep you from electrocution should the cord, or the $10 generic power supply, fail. That assumes the cord, PSU,outlet, and facility wiring are all correct. Should that power cord get yanked one too many times, you risk YOU being the direct path from 110VAC to ground! :) Please don't become a statistic.

Common sense is still the best safety factor

No. Education is the best safety factor. Common sense can be deceiving and lead us astray.

if you don't know what you're doing, stay out of the equipment.

Now that I agree with. But sadly, dust does not heed that advice and users must periodically clean their computers of heat trapping dust. And to do that, they must understand ESD prevention.

I say again - anything that plugs into the wall can kill. We must not assume, or lead others to assume it is okay to put blind faith into a cheap power cord or PSU (even the best can be faulty, or fail). And never assume your wall outlet is properly wired or grounded either.
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#28
dsenette

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Digerati and major payne...get back on topic real quick...this irrelevant argument isn't helping anyone Edit:removed by me
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