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Help Upgrading Please


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#31
Zolton33

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Awesome thanks you have been a great help and thank you so much man. Now provided these do not sell out before i order them Monday i should be good until i decide to do my upgrading around Jan-Mar of next year then i will have a system i have been wanting for a while to game better. Mine plays anything thrown at it now but i do believe its feeling its age. Then it will be the next chore of upgrading the wifes PC >_< But i guess its never ending lol. Would you happen to know a bit about the windows 7 os?

I'm thinking of upgrading to win 7 but know that the oem version is tied to the motherboard itself so not very do it yourselffriendly (although many people have been able to get theirs reactivated despite that). I was just curious as to the upgrade version. I have windows xp home 32. So i can upgrade to 7 from it. And the upgrade i can buy has 3 keys. So that be great for upgrading mine and my wifes pc. But i'm curious as to the tos with mobo changes when it comes to upgrading from win xp to 7. And since i will have 3 keys (and only needing 2) could i then replace my mobo (an upgrade) if it breaks down and re install with the unused key and still be within their tos? Understanding windows user agreements is a huge pita. The upgrade you can buy is about the same price as an oem with 3 keys is why i'm asking.

http://www.amazon.co...ndows 7 upgrade

And would that be considered the full home edition? Or would it require another upgrade?
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#32
phillpower2

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No worries and you are most welcome BTW :thumbsup:

Regarding the upgrade path to W7, you may find the information at the attached link helpful http://www.microsoft...amily-pack.aspx

Any further questions feel free to give us a shout and we would welcome any updates that you may have as they may help others who read your topic looking for guidance.
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#33
Zolton33

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My questions are numerous about windows 7.

1.I know the oem version it was changed that you are not supposed to install it on a machine unless you plan to sell it And that the oem version is tied to the motherboard. And that the full version you can upgrade as much as you want so long as it is only installed on one machine and it is not tied to your mobo. My first question is which one is the windows 7 upgrade?

2.Is it considered to be the full version using its tos or is it like the oem?

3.If it is the full version then couldn't i install my old windows xp oem on my wifes to upgrade from using one of the keys when i doher new build? Or would i then need to pay out to buy another windows os (xp vista) to install from?

4.If it is not considered the full version and more like the oem then couldn't i use 1 of the keys to upgrade to a better mobo and cpu later down the road?

Four very confusing questions i know. But windows user agreement is very confusing since they want to force those building their own pc's to buy the full version. And with having a windows 7 basic as well as windows 7 full and a premium they make it even more confusing. I don't think they even have the answers to these questions sadly.
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#34
phillpower2

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I will try and answer your questions as best as I can :whistling:

1; An OEM OS disk in certain circumstances can be used on another machine, these include as long as a new product key is used and it was not a branded disk such as a Dell OEM or HP OEM disk for example.
What OEM means is that the end user, you in this instance are responsible for any problems that may arise with the OS, unlike a full retail disk which would entitle you to certain support from MS.

2: To use the upgrade you must already have a MS OS installed and the new product keys are provided direct from MS so unless I am mistaken you would be entitled to support from them.

3: See #1, to use your OEM XP disk on another machine it must already have the same version of XP installed (home, pro etc) it must not be branded and it must be used with a separate product key.

4: See #2, you must already have a qualifying OS already installed on the machine before you can use the upgrade.

I hope this helps but if not consider sending MS an email asking for any particular points that need clarification.
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#35
Zolton33

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http://www.tomshardw...=0&new=0&nojs=0

That topic i made a few months back on tomshardware is full of information on the windows 7 oem. The only questions i have not been able to get answered is the differences between the upgrade version of windows 7 and the full version if there is any.

The oem is now only to be installed on a pc you intent to sell via microsofts tos:

http://www.microsoft...ensing_faq.aspx

Q. Can a PC with an OEM Windows operating system have its motherboard upgraded and keep the same license? What if it was replaced because it was defective?
A. Generally, an end user can upgrade or replace all of the hardware components on a computer—except the motherboard—and still retain the license for the original Microsoft OEM operating system software. If the motherboard is upgraded or replaced for reasons other than a defect, then a new computer has been created. Microsoft OEM operating system software cannot be transferred to the new computer, and the license of new operating system software is required. If the motherboard is replaced because it is defective, you do not need to acquire a new operating system license for the PC as long as the replacement motherboard is the same make/model or the same manufacturer's replacement/equivalent, as defined by the manufacturer's warranty.

The reason for this licensing rule primarily relates to the End User Software License Terms and the support of the software covered by that End User Software License Terms. The End User Software License Terms is a set of usage rights granted to the end user by the PC manufacturer and relates only to rights for that software as installed on that particular PC. The system builder is required to support the software on the original PC. Understanding that end users, over time, upgrade their PCs with different components, Microsoft needed to have one base component "left standing" that would still define the original PC. Since the motherboard contains the CPU and is the "heart and soul" of the PC, when the motherboard is replaced (for reasons other than defect) a new PC is essentially created. The original system builder did not manufacture this new PC, and therefore cannot be expected to support it.


Add to that this

What are the different ways in which Microsoft OEM System Builder Windows licenses can be distributed?

A. The current OEM System Builder License allows system builders to distribute Windows desktop operating system licenses in the following ways: Preinstalled on a new PC and resold to a third party.

Unopened OEM System Builder packs (1-, 3-, or 30-packs) can be distributed to other system builders. Note that they must remain unopened so the receiving system builder can accept and be bound by the break-the-seal license agreement affixed to the pack. They should not be distributed to end users.


So unless you are building a system to sell to another person you are not supposed to buy and use the oem version (i guess you could sell it to a friend for a dollar and buy it back for a dollar to get around it). And it is tied to the mobo. But i can not find specifics when it come to the upgrade version of windows 7 and whether or not it is considered the full version or not. Or whether or not the upgrade is considered basic windows 7 home or not. If it was the full version i would consider the upgrade as a purchase so that i could just upgrade my windows xp to windows 7. But these changes are also part of the service agreement for windows xp (although i did buy my version before they changed it not that it matters i do not think). I would love to know how i am to replace my motherboard though for my pc seeing how my board is now out dated and discontinued lol.

And in some cases they just go ahead and ignore their own tos and reactivate the windows. And many of those who work for microsoft also buy and use the oem version for their own pc's and family members. So they do not even honor their own tos in many circumstances and word things in a way that is in no way crystal clear. I would love to know if the upgrade version is considered the full version. Or if it is considered the oem as their tos are completely different. Here is another topic on windows 7 and its differences from tomshardware:

http://www.tomshardw...sions-explained

A good read for any one who builds their own systems.
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#36
phillpower2

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My canned text regarding the use of an OEM disk;

Just a cautionary note, unless your OS disk is the full retail edition you cannot use it with a new MB as an OEM disk is tied to the original MB it was paired with, to use an OEM disk with a new MB is software piracy and therefore illegal.

Exceptions to the above are 1: If your MB is replaced under warranty and 2: If a defective MB is replaced out of warranty with an alternative type but same brand due to the original model no longer being available, an upgraded MB however will require the purchase of a new OS licence.


Thank you for providing the above information Zolton33, it will help others who may read your topic.
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#37
Zolton33

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http://www.differenc...d-full-version/

Best answer i have found so far with the differences between the windows 7 upgrade and the full retail versions.

Aside from those differences stated above, there is no difference between the upgrade and full versions of the same edition. Both contain the same software packages and functionalities without any type of limitation for the cheaper upgrade version. The only difference is in the small portion of code that checks for the presence of a previous Windows installation; added to the upgrade version installer and doesn’t affect the operating system once it is installed


And there is this small note from that article:

This behavior of the upgrade version can be a problem or at the very least an annoyance to those who often reinstall their operating system or even to ordinary users who experience computer troubles. Reinstalling the upgrade version would mean that you would also need to reinstall your older version of Windows and have it activated before you can install Windows 7. This adds an extra step to the already long process of installation and not to mention the need to keep the both discs and serial numbers safe as losing either would be a very big problem.


Now i do not know for sure but from the looks of this information your upgrade version must then reflect your old os (xp or vista) whether it was oem or not as it would need to be installed and activated before you could reinstall the windows 7 upgrade again. So for those who like to replace hard drives as well as do fresh new reinstalls of an os from time to time an upgrade version seems to be a pita.

So if you like to replace hdd drives or ssd drives occasionally your choices are:

1. buy the upgrade and to keep your old windows xp and vista discs and keys to install the upgrade version (if your old os was an upgrade from a previous os then you would need those discs and keys as well) so if you upgrade your dell or (insert name brand pc manufacturer here) and need to replace your hdd later you are out of luck on being able to use the upgrade disc again.

2. ignore the tos of windows and buy the oem version (note: it is meant for people who build pc's to resell not for diy pc builders or for people who want a cheaper alternative to the full version price) And basically be pirating as you are not supposed to be given a copy of the oem disc with your build. (another note being that this is tied to your motherboard so if you upgrade you are supposed to buy another oem for that upgrade)

3. buy the full version and install it on any machine configuration you wish provided it is only installed on one machine at any given time (meaning only one pc can be using the key for your full version at any given time) if you want to install it on more then one pc you need to purchase an additional key for each of the pc's you want to install it on

It be nice if this information was made more clear (and microsoft was more consistent). As stated even people who work for microsoft buy and use the oem version over the full version not only for their pc's but also for family and friends pc's. Many people still continue to buy the oem versions for diy builds despite its user agreement (very few people read through it). People using the oem version installs are more often then not still getting their oem keys reactivated (and microsoft has even given new keys to pirated installs of their os) even if they upgrade and even if they upgrade their motherboard to a different brand. In most cases all you need to do is to call them.

Now i am in no way advocating piracy or ignoring the end user agreements of microsofts os. But do find it funny that many times people pirate their os and microsoft does not take the time to verify it and reactivates the pirated os and at times even gives them new keys. And despite their user agreement on the oem versions often reactivates them as well as issuing new keys for those as well. Some pirate os got their keys by going to a place that sells pc's and copying the windows key from the side of the machine setup as a display model (so i do not recommend any one ever buying the display model pc at all at your local stores).

Just thought people should be informed on whats going on around them. I do not recommend pirating as if caught you will more then likely face severe fines and maybe jail time. And i do not recommend the oem version because even if they are at times still activating them for upgrades and such that does not mean it will always happen (and the cost of 1 full version is a lot cheaper then the 2 oems you would be purchasing any way if they refuse to rectivate your windows). So it seems the 2 best options are the upgrade (with the added pain of installing your old os before the upgrade) and the full version (it is by far the most flexible of all the options on reinstalls and upgrades).

I do find this funny though :

For DIY System Builders


Building Your Own Computer?
Check out Amazon's System Builder Software Store for all your Do It Yourself PC-Building needs. Featuring the latest Microsoft OEM software, you'll be up and running and enjoying the ultimate Computer in no time.


http://www.amazon.co...&pf_rd_i=229534

Now here is a link to the oem of windows 7 64 bit from amazon:

http://www.amazon.co...X3QMNXY2MTSBYGP

Now scroll down to the product description:

From the Manufacturer
Use of this OEM System Builder Channel software is subject to the terms of the Microsoft OEM System Builder License. This software is intended for pre-installation on a new personal computer for resale. This OEM System Builder Channel software requires the assembler to provide end user support for the Windows software and cannot be transferred to another computer once it is installed. To acquire Windows software with support provided by Microsoft please see our full package "Retail" product offerings.


If you are not careful you could easily over look that. Especially when it is advertised as

Windows 7 Home Premium SP1 64bit (Full) System Builder DVD 1 Pack

microsoft put out a memo to all places that sell oem discs to include that bit about this version only to be used in a new build meant for resell. Yet as you can see it is still put in places for do it yourself builders and marketed as such despite it clearly stating that it is only to be installed on a pc for reselling. Microsoft does not seem to be actively pushing the issue if they were one would think they would get after places like amazon pushing it as a do it yourself os. But who knows for sure as the user agreement at times conflicts with its own information.

http://www.microsoft...bid=6CK-V9Obmmy

I personally recommend the full version http://www.amazon.co...=windows 7 home $175 but compare it to buying 2 oem at roughly 91 bucks a piece $182. Yes you may pay a bit more now but you are also more easily covered for further upgrades in the future. Plus you have to keep in mind microsoft does not want diy pc builders to buy the oem version and have it clearly stated that it is for pc's in which you intend to resell. So quite a few things to keep in mind when buying an operating system. The upgrade version is also a choice provided you already have a windows os install disc and key (vista or xp).

http://www.amazon.co...=windows 7 home $104

or go with a 3 pack to save some cash

http://www.amazon.co...=windows 7 home $140
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#38
Zolton33

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To add if you use an upgrade it replaces your old os user agreement. What does this mean? If your old os is windows xp or vista oem then if you upgrade your motherboard after installing the upgrade version of windows 7 then you can not then reinstall your old os then upgrade as your original copy of oem windows was voided when you upgraded your motherboard so you no longer have a legit version of windows to upgrade from. That is very important to know i think as my old windows xp is oem if i buy an upgrade i could not then make any upgrades to my motherboard (which is out dated and discontinued). So i think i may hold for a bit to buy a windows 7 upgrade.
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#39
Zolton33

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http://www.zdnet.com...s-8-7000000431/

An interesting read. Seems microsoft might becoming more diy friendly.


Also on a side note i ordered my parts yesterday and just waiting for 1 to arrive and the other 2 to be shipped (not sure what is taking so long on the shipping to be honest). Hopefully when they arrive i'll be to get my pc fully sorted out. Then i will need to consider what upgrades i will use when i go replacing my mobo and cpu and ram (the ram will be easy to sort once i get the cpu and mobo picked out.

The 4 paths i am considering are:

1. An amd apu one of the newest ones a10 that are fm2 with a 7000 series gpu built in as that would leave room for an upgrade later on with a newer apu plus with this route i could use dual gpu by buying just 1 and have a quad core cpu.

2.Going with an fx series cpu. I know that many of these have received a bad rep but they do game well and only fall behind by a few fps compared to the intel counter parts and are at times cheaper and i can get up toan 8 core this way.

3.Intel 1155 cpu dual or quad core with being able to upgrade later on with a better cpu from the sandy/ivy bridge line. These right now give the best gaming fps but are often times a lot more expensive. So while this route is the best for gaming fps its also the most expensive with intel 1155 quads being at or well above the $200.00 mark right now and the sandy bridge costs as much or more at times then the ivy bridge cpu's.

4.Intel haswell is the last choice. No pricing listed yet and they will use a newer socket 1150 then the 1155 so going this route would get me a newer cpu and a further upgrading path assuming intel uses this socket for quite a few more new cpu releases. And i am guessing that these will probably be quite expensive as well (as almost all intel's latest cpu's are).

I am seriously leaning towards the unlocked a10 apu series for the cheapest best gaming build. The gpu built into the cpu will game well itself and if i need to it gives me the option to boost it a bit more by dual cards utilizing the cpu's gpu with 1 card. Plus amd has more apu's in development for the fm2 socket meaning i can always upgrade my cpu later to a more newer version to help push my systems longevity even more. Plus their top a10 right now is well under $150 bucks at $130 or so and that is for a quad core and a 7000 series gpu built in. So a bit more future proofing.

Any one else's thoughts on these 4 paths? Think of a better one i have not listed yet? Which path would you choose as the best path for a low income build/upgrade?
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#40
phillpower2

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Each has their pros and cons and I can only suggest that you wait until you are almost ready to upgrade and then check out the prices, use the time until then for further research.
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#41
Zolton33

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Yeah and it is why i am having trouble choosing. The intel way is the best possible for choosing the best possible fps in gaming but with the end of the sandy and ivy bridge that is as far as you can go with the 1155 socket. Plus the costs are not cheap by any means. The FX though performs well but is not very well received as people were hoping for amd to try to dethrone some intel chips. But people seem to forget that amd has clearly stated they are not trying to compete with intel at the high end any more. The APU route seems the most future proof and seem to bench mark well http://www.tomshardw...iency,3315.html as that review shows. Plus its built in gpu saves in the costs of crossfire as well as performs well on its own. No gaming benchmarks so far with it or with it crossfiring plus amd has more apu's planned so there is further upgrading possibilities later on. I'm just trying to plan a bit ahead on my upgrades. I've already researched these possibilities (minus haswell which is not out yet) and it will ultimately come down to the best possible price. But i doubt that intel will lower their prices down to or below the fx or apu line that amd is offering. Plus fx has some newer chips coming in December so i will need to consider some of those as well.

I'm also considering my best course of action in regards to the best choice in os. Windows 7 is popular right now so seems like the obvious choice. And windows 8 does not seem to be well welcomed to many people. But it is said to be the most compatible with the amd fx line of cpus. Plus if they change their tos in regards to diy with windows 8 that would make it more useful over all in a diy build. I just do not care for touch screen applications and such plus there is a learning curve to it as it is rumored to no longer have a start button option. I love my windows xp but microsoft is set to phase it out. Plus i would like to take advantage of the higher usability of ram so upgrading from xp seems unavoidable.


On a side not all parts i ordered are now listed as shipped so now i just need to wait until they arrive to finish fixing up my pc.
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#42
Zolton33

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Got my arctic silver yesterday and the new cpu fan today so i just went ahead and replaced the cpu fan. So far temps are a lot lower then normal i've left it on and running for over an hour now with not much of a change. When before my cpu fan rarely worked its now on full time (had to use the system fan slot on my mobo over the cpu fan plug in as there was a transister next to where i needed to plug it in and this cpu fan is a 4 pin and my motherboard a 3) and reading temps rarely jumping up to 37 at one point but it quickly went back down to 31-33 and 33 seems to be the max it is hitting at this point. Amazon says my psu will be here by or around the 12 of this month when it arrives i'll switch out my old psu just to be safe as i have noticed some voltage drops here and there (nothing overly dramatic more like dipping from 1.5 to 1.3 as one example) so i am hoping this better psu will make things a bit more stable.


Then maybe i can get on to planning my other upgrades and my best path for it. I have to say i am impressed with my amd cpu as it has kept up and kept going for over 6 years now without fail. I'll never underestimate an amd athlon x2 cpu that is for sure. My first build was an intel pentium 4 that burned up itself and my mobo in less then a year. So to say i'm a bit worried about going with an intel build is an understatement. But it seems their cpus have improved a lot since then. So i am on the fence about my next build. After i install my new psu i'll post an update on my progress.
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#43
phillpower2

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Thanks for the update Zolton33 :thumbsup:

Glad to hear that your temps have come down and now appear to be stable, a nuisance about the transformer being in the way of the fan connection, if it bothers you there is an adaptor such as the example @ http://www.frozencpu...634&id=IuHahMUS personally I would not bother as you are upgrading soon and the extra work that the fan is doing now will still be within the fans lifetime expectancy.
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#44
Zolton33

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Yeah i am not overly concerned as i am planning a full upgrade in a few months. It being as a system fan in my monitoring software is a pita but tolerable. The plastic in the mobo is so old that i am concerned for its continued life span but it should last long enough for me to do what i am planning to do with it i believe.

I am considering these purchases in Jan maybe : http://pcpartpicker.com/p/jFkZ

Now let me tell you my plan at the moment. It is to buy these parts then my next purchase the next month would be to get windows 7. This way i can have a good pc to get me by. I need to do 2 builds unfortunately. The wifes old pc she bought (only $40 at a yard sale) is to slow to allow her to play pioneer trail on facebook. It is an old dell with a celeron processor and 1 gig of ram. Takes her 5-15 minutes to do one thing on the game :confused:

So my plan is to buy those parts and windows 7 (OEM) the following month Feb. In March i plan to buy either an i3 or an i5 cpu (hoping the haswell craze may bring down some prices on these two cpus although i may have to wait on the cpu purchase till after haswell release or until some price drops) once i get the new cpu i think i should be good to go until i decide to get a new gpu.

So i use the cpu mobo and ram to finish my build but wait until i get windows 7 oem to install it (so put it together in Feb). But when i buy my windows 7 i plan to also buy the ram for my wifes build in Feb and when it comes get my system up and running with the new components (and put theo ther 2 sticks of 4 gig ram away for the moment). After getting an i3 or i5 in march i will then put the old (though still new) cpu up to use in the wifes upgrade as well as the new 2 sticks of 4 gig ram each away to use for later (that i bought with the windows 7 purchase). Then the following month after installing the newest cpu (around April) i will buy her a mobo like mine (the mobo i chose is ivy bridge compatible and looks to serve my basic needs). Then that next month get her a windows 7 oem disk (May).

This way her pc will then have the same mobo as mine using the cpu i bought to use for a short while until i get a newer gaming cpu. And we will both have the same ram (8 gig total in each) and both will then be running windows 7 as well and have the same mobo and same bios (make it alot easier onme to fix her pc when she messes it up sadly she is technologically impaired). Now i play a lot of mmorpgs and rpgs while the wife plays mainly flash games. So i would think the cpu a Celeron G540 would serve her just fine playing flash games watching videos online and surfing the web (that is all she does) after i get her pc up in full swing i plan to get a new gpu and give her my old 6450 (which like i said should be plenty for her as she only plays flash games watches videos and surfs the web).

That is one upgrade path i am considering. It will take quite some time and patience to pull it off but at the end of both builds we both should have pc's that will do what we want from them. Her dell case kind of worries me a bit on cooling but if the temps are a bit to hot i can always buy her a new case (which i plan to probably get us each new cases any way to take advantage of the 3.0 usb). I could also maybe go with a few other build options. But i find it best to flesh it all out on paper to think and mull over and ask opinions on it and changing it as circumstances change. It is still a few months off before i start seriously buying components. So many things could change and come into play between now and then. I would personally prefer an amd type build but then i would be sacrificing performance quite a bit.

Note: To add that the reason i am planning it this way is that my income is very low and i receive it monthly. I would be pushing my finances to their limit by spending $150 in any single month. And would love the cheapest path possible. The first purchase i have planned is about $154 at this moment but it could drop significantly by the time i make my order in Jan (or it could go up it is funny with electronics like that). I am using this topic as a kind of think tank (hope that is ok) as to the best path (and i am sure there are others with a low income and in the same boat i am so this may also help them as well).

http://www.amazon.co...49679045&sr=1-3 The pentium G850 seems like a nice buy as well for a few dollars more

Kind of using http://www.tomshardw...ock,3106-5.html The cpu hierarchy is useful when looking for the best gaming cpu within your budget. On it the G540 is in the sixth gaming cpu bracket. The G850 is in the fifth gaming cpu bracket. Ideally the second bracket i3 is what i would like but at $105 that may have to wait for my second upgrade. Although i'm really eye balling the i5 quad cores. Although i do like my dual core a quad would be sweet but the cheapest quad intel cpu is around $180+.

Edited by Zolton33, 08 October 2012 - 01:01 AM.

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#45
Zolton33

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Just received my psu a little bit ago and i took out everything to hook things up and discovered i had a front fan i had forgotten to ever hook up as well as some front panel led lights and a lcd screen in the front that shows the cpu and hdd temps (although i did not hook up the wires that monitor those temps). :whistling: The cpu idle temps seem to be staying below 36-37c. So it is running a bit hotter but i think its understandable as my old psu had 2 80mm fans that sucked the heat out of my case while this psu has 1 120mm fan to suck out the heat. I have not tested it to see how hot it will get yet. So far so good with this new psu. And i am pleased. Now if i can just get the funds together and choose the upgrades i am going to install my pc will be the way i want it. I wish i had a cam to put upsome pics of allthe hidden dust i cleaned out and show how good it looks with the leds all lit up. The two rear fan leds died some how in the install though and only 1 of the 4 on my 120mm led fans is lit up.

But i guess i can fix that when i replace all the fans with newer led fans later on. I do appreciate the help in choosing a decent cheap psu and cpu fan. Now i just need to get a new cpu mobo and ram to get the system i do want then push it later on with a good gpu. My cpu was at 2.2 and is now at 2.21. But all in all i am happy with this build for now. I just hope all the other components hold up until i can get them upgraded as well.
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