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Should Divine Intervention Be Taugh Alongside Evol


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#31
dsenette

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i just want to add something real quick because this thread is heading away from it's original purpose (should divine intervention be taught in schools).....i'm ok with anyone believing what they want to believe....if you believe that there was a giant monkey that made us out of bannannas...then...well that's up to you....but....to completely disregard scientific evidence in a school system...would be a great disservice to your own children....also you must take into account the sepperation of church and state (if you live in the U.S.) which means that by default y ou cannot teach creationism...in any way shape or form....it's against the law...whether you agree with that or not...it's law.....so the questioin comes in on what you would like to base your belief system on....do you believe that there is no god and the fact that we are here is some giant mathematicall random number generator? do you believe that god set the ball in motion and is the reason for evolution in the first place? or do you follow the bible to the tee...and believe the earth is only about 6000 years old and that all science is lies?...
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#32
dsenette

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How did the first cell come about? So far all proof sagest that this can not be done.

the first cell came about when the right protiens and amino acids found their way into the right pool of muck and had a chemical reaction....the same way any mollecule was formed.

I am going to tell every one why they world is not 4.3 billion years old, next.

i'd really like to hear this proof

I would rather not compare humans to machines or animals

why not? all we are is an animal, and all an animal is, is a biological machine....we're a bunch of chemical gears and cogs working together

Edited by dsenette, 04 November 2005 - 03:38 PM.

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#33
dsenette

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Actually what good have modern science brougth us?

throw your computer in the trash....it apparently wasn't a "good" scientific discovery
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#34
Pi rules

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why not? all we are is an animal, and all an animal is, is a biological machine....we're a bunch of chemical gears and cogs working together

I didn't word that the best way. I know how closely related humans and animals are, but I believe that humans have souls (not saying everyone else should believe it). Also, I don't think that any animal has been proven to be conscious or have a conscience.

Edited by Pi rules, 04 November 2005 - 05:57 PM.

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#35
dsenette

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i personally haven't been able to prove that most people i meet have a concience...and...how do you know that animals don't have souls?

chimps and dolphins have shown very strong signs of self awareness...(conciousness)....they can recognize themselves in a mirror or photographs..i can't find the thread now but i believe it was keith who reported a snippet from an article about monkey's understanding the concept of money....that's pretty high level thought there..
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#36
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i know iv entered this convasation at a late and exhausted stage, but feel id like to make a contribution :woot: i believe that teaching devine intervation in biology would meen that you would have to teach evolution in religious studies...if this is the case why not just keep it as it is,two separate studies, im sure later on in the childs life they will come to a point where they realise the contradictions between the two and make adjustments where needed, whether this means disbelieving one theory all together or combining the two and even if they dont reach a stage where they feel required to do this then learning either of these theories of life becomes irrelavent to them anyway. I ghess what im trying to say is ifthe child is interested enough to question the formation of life then chances are they will get the information required to do so of their own backs anyway. :tazz: :woot: :)

p.s im an atheist please check some of the quotes you may find them interesting :)

by the way i know this is a little off topic but could you consider having a spell checkerput in place, im getting tired of editing my posts due to my terrible spelling abilities

Edited by The_Tiddler, 04 November 2005 - 05:55 PM.

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#37
Pi rules

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i personally haven't been able to prove that most people i meet have a concience...and...how do you know that animals don't have souls?

Almost everyone has one, it can just be buried quite deep. I think, however, that there are some conditions where a person is unable to feel remorse for killing or something, so that could be defined as a lack of conscience.

Dolphins do seem to be very smart animals, but their intelligence and state of conscious cannot match a human by a long shot.

i can't find the thread now but i believe it was keith who reported a snippet from an article about monkey's understanding the concept of money....that's pretty high level thought there..

:tazz: I've seen videos of some monkeys (one looked similar to the one in your avatar, btw) taking people's money or shiny jewelery. The monkeys probably are able to associate money with a reward from the testers.
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#38
dsenette

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...

Dolphins do seem to be very smart animals, but their intelligence and state of conscious cannot match a human by a long shot.

at what age are you concidering someone a human? because apes and dolphins are rated by most biologists somewhere in the 5 to 7 year old human range

i wish i could find the post for you...it's very interesting...the basics of it say that the monkeys aren't trained...they actually make spending decisions without prompting...they can understand that when the price of bannanas goes down...they buy more bannans...and when the price of peaches goes down..they buy more peaches...and sometimes...the just want bannanas so they pay more for them....hehe i wish i could find the post..

also....when i posted my last little burst of stuff in here....i had reread the thread and got a little aggitated..so if anything i said offended anyone i appologize
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#39
Michael

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or do you follow the bible to the tee...and believe the earth is only about 6000 years old and that all science is lies?...

You have put there a point of view that very few beleive and tryed to say that I what I am insisting. I think where the bilble talks about science it is correct. And in every case that has been proved. God said not to east pork to stop desease in his chosen people. Science is not lies, I beleive any thing that it can prove, that means I don't beleive evolution because it can't be proved. You say I can't prove creation, but I can show how every thing in the Bible is suported by science. Also I don't think that the word is 6000 years old may be some where between 10,000 to 30,000 years, because that is what science show it to be. I have a some quotes below about it. I can also prove Noah's flood, I will have another look over a book that I have about it that states the scientific case for the flood and post some quotes form it when I have time.

Direct measurements of the earth's mangnetic fiels over the past 140 years show a steady and rapid decline in its strength. This decay pattern is consistent with the theoretical viw that there is an electrical courrent inside the earth which produces the magnectic fiel. If this view is correct, the 25,000 years ago the electrical corrent whould have been so vast that the earth's structure could not have survived the heat produced. This would imply that the earth could not be older that 25,000 years

Atomic clocks, which have for that last twenty-six years measured the earth's spin rate to the nearest billionth of a second, have consistently found that the earth is slowing down at the rate of almost one second a year. If the earth were billionds of years old, its initiial spin rate would have been fantastically rapid-so rapid that major distortions in the shape of the eart would have occurred

That is tow of over a hundren quotes that I have in font of me now.

Also you are right, complexity dose not disprove evolution, it is that every thing has to be so complex and 100% complete to work and survive. The same applys to the machiens haveing to be complete to work.

And yes I know this is leaving the point of the thread to some drgee, but every one is going to try and defend there point of view by discussing evolution.

By the way... I am applying this quote to every thing that I say in this thread.

I don't mean to affend any one......But I don't realy care it I do.

I realy like the person that said that.
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#40
warriorscot

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What is a soul exactly, i can see what you mean concious thought raises us above most animals in the fact that we can ignore certain impulses of our nature. However we can see the same behaviour in other animals only to a lesser extent, because they havent got as good at it yet does that mean they should be considered soul less. An animal can feel love, an animal can even appreciate art, and they also share our love of shiny objects.

You think there fore you are, there is such a thing as a human without a soul as you would put it, its not a permanent thing, men can be animals as well when pushed to it or choose to be so. Our animal nature affects us more than perhaps most people realise, when you see human behaviour observed impartially and from a distance we share the same predatory instincts as we did when we could be considered nothing more than an animal, we live in packs, family groups and "hunting groups" with alpha males at the head.

Its not really fair to say that animals dont have souls and we do, becasue we can observe that some animals do have a concience as much as we do , and we share the same ability to ignore it as they do.

I will never beleive in divine intervention myself A the fact that i dont beleive in a god therfore negating the original question on my behalf. And B i am a scientist im trainind to be a chemist and have studied a good deal of physics and mathematics, from that point of view from the information available to me i can come to the informed decision that the theory of evolution is fairly sound while we cannot show the complete picture of it as yet, we can give a fair approximation based upon evidence and statistical probabilities, which is so much better than alot of the theories taken to be true today.
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#41
Woman

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Should divine intervention be taught in biology class along side evolution? Wasn't that the original question?

Not if the lesson includes slicing and dicing frogs to see what makes them tick. Or ribbit. But if the lesson covers man's beliefs on the beginnings of life then, naturally it should be included.

Most people on earth believe in a Supreme Being (or several). Why should the atheists prevail? Like I said earlier, dear Darwin was not even convinced of his so-called theory (no evidence = hypothesis). Maybe he had an inkling even then that life was far more complex than he could ever dream. Maybe he understood that evolution = chaos; if everything is constantly evolving, as it must for this so-called theory to stand, then where is all the in-between stuff?

On the other hand, divine intervention - the existence of a Supreme Creator - can be seen far more clearly than evolution. Take creation. Creation demands a creator. Take order. Order demands one putting things into that state. And why is man called "the naked ape"? What sort of evolution in its right mind would devolve from practical, protective fur to bare skin?

It's fear of facing the Maker that makes atheists. It's covering the eyes to the order and complexity of life around them. It's self-righteousness at its peak - man, the all-powerful animal.

By the way, not one thing in the Bible has ever been proven untrue. Not one jot. Not one tittle.

Next time you're in a hotel room, atheists, check out what the Gideons left there for you. Read it as though you really wanted the truth. You might just be surprised!

Edited by Woman, 08 November 2005 - 01:19 PM.

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#42
dsenette

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is consistent with the theoretical viw that


you guys keep sayin that evolution shouldn't be believed because it's nothing but a theory....well? your little quote is from a theory....

and...the COMMOn...theory on why the earth has a magnetic field is that the earth's core is solide iron and is spinning at a different speed than the rest of the earth which is seperated by the liquid core...thus making the earth into a giant scale electro magnet....

the most reliable method of dating the planet (carbon14 dating) has been proven to be reliable...and any other radiocarbon or radioactive decay dating are ten times more reliable than electromagnetic study
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#43
Optikal

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hi strangers
Sorry but i feel i must put in my 2cents worth.. Evolution is not a theory, i has been a proven fact for some time now, the fact that you can even think about this subject is thanks to evolution, we think because evolution deemed it necessary, if you lacked the brain power to contemplate such things would there still be a god? Religion has not been proven in any form what so ever, even logged history is not conclusive.. vague at best, all myth/stories, life evolves to adhere to its surroundings, if you are one that believes is god, ask yourself, what of gods creator, as you cant get something from nothing god must have spawned from something.. god - gods creator - gods creators creator.. an so on, so its impossible really... lol
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#44
Michael

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A quote form post 24 answers your statment about Radiometric Dating and talks about the Geological Column since they are both related.

You would have heard of the Geological Column. This is circular reasoning at its worst. This is how it works – they find a fossil and date it according to the theory of evolution. The fossils are then arranged in their assumed order. The simple to complex progression in the Geological Column is then called proof for evolution, this is the obvious result if they are dated for no other reason than to show this. The obvious question that comes to mind is don’t they use Radiometric Dating? The answer is Yes! But the real thing is how do they get the results from Radiometric Dating? For Radiometric Dating there are four things you must know. They are how much of the mother element and how much of the daughter element there is present in the sample now and also how much of the mother element and how much of the daughter element there was. They can easily find out how much of the mother element and how much of the daughter element there is now but you cannot find out how much of the mother element and how much of the daughter element there was. So you make a guess so that you get the result you want. So therefore it is up to the person dating the specimen as to how old it is. Also they have never found the complete Geological Column. They have found part of it but most of the time the layers are in the wrong order, with layers that are supposed to be hundreds of million of years younger under ones that are supposed to be older.


If it is a proven fact, give that facts and answer my objections. An do we think because we have a soul that makes it posible, not because of evolution. A soul is our immortal and and our spirutal side. Animals also have a soul but theirs dies when they die, so there is a big differance between the two.

There was never nothing, there always was God. But that does make more sence what you remember that it was he that created time, and he is out side it, that means no past, present or furtur, for him.

as you cant get something from nothing.........

Nice statment, so how did the Big Bang happen since it can't have come from nothing as you said and you have no God to create it? Answer that I am will be an evolutionest.
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#45
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As you probably know I am a christian and I am not going to try to to be bias. With any agrument you put agaisnt creation you can put against evolution (and vice versa). For example Where did God come from?... Where did the small ball for the big bang come from?.... No matter how you look at it how the earth was made broke a science law. As i said before I'll try not to be bias and I will say it is just as believeable that a God made the universe as a small ball did. I don't study evolution but I know there are two types of it one where we evolved from monkies and the other where a half human half monkey slipt up into two groups and then they envolved (If I'm wrong please correct me) . The second is a little more believable than the first. People often just point out how the other way is wrong. There is strong science backing up evol. and there is strong science going agasint it. I just want to end with this statment, the main reason creationist try to spread gods word is becuase they care for people and don't want them to go to [bleep]. Although I did do a little thinking and I feel as long as there is a public christian school by then you can teach however you want.
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