[Optikal]

Evolution is simply the name given to a process that is in effect all around us, when the worlds forests starting declining monkeys(early man) was forced to stand up and also think were to find food, thanks to these needs evolution has provided us with the brain power to argue/debate trivial things such as this, a valid point a friend of mine always brings up is..If we did not have the ability to think.. would there still be a god?... about the something from nothing.. if you could get something from nothing then its entirely possible life on earth came to be all by itself without out outside intervention.. i often think about the big bang theory(cosmology my forte) and its flawed in many areas, when it comes to how and why we came to be its all assumptions which brings me back to the topic.. god is an assumption, evolution is a fact(proven in millions of species over millions of years), so how anyone could even consider throwing MYTH into a Biology Class is beyond me (another good point my friend makes - If you believe in god i have no doubt he is real to you)

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i often think about the big bang theory(cosmology my forte) and its flawed in many areas

So do you expect me to beleive a theory that is flawed in many areas?

I have already stated some fact that show the world is not millions of years old and no one has disproved them.

If we could not think, there would still be a God we just would not know it. I and I can prove it, not useing science, but I can useing other methods of thinking such as philosophy and theology. Science can't answer everything. I am not going to try because it is a too complex and a sencitive issure and not on topic in this thread.

dsenette

and...the COMMOn...theory on why the earth has a magnetic field is that the earth's core is solide iron and is spinning at a different speed than the rest of the earth which is seperated by the liquid core...thus making the earth into a giant scale electro magnet....

I think that is the same theory, that is what causes the electrical courrent that makes the earth a giant electro magnet. You need an electrical courrent to make an electro magnet, that is what I have been told.

[Michael]

i often think about the big bang theory(cosmology my forte) and its flawed in many areas

So do you expect me to beleive a theory that is flawed in many areas?

I have already stated some fact that show the world is not millions of years old and no one has disproved them.

If we could not think, there would still be a God we just would not know it. I and I can prove it, not useing science, but I can useing other methods of thinking such as philosophy and theology. Science can't answer everything. I am not going to try because it is a too complex and a sencitive issure and not on topic in this thread.

dsenette

and...the COMMOn...theory on why the earth has a magnetic field is that the earth's core is solide iron and is spinning at a different speed than the rest of the earth which is seperated by the liquid core...thus making the earth into a giant scale electro magnet....

I think that is the same theory, that is what causes the electrical courrent that makes the earth a giant electro magnet. You need an electrical courrent to make an electro magnet, that is what I have been told.

[ukbiker]

The basic problem here is that opinions and beliefs are being presented as facts. Consider this.

The "Scientific" or secular route to proof is by the presentation of a model, subjected to critique, observation and replicability, thus the model advances, it is a dynamic process. The only facts involved are those for which a metric exists . No "proven" model is sacrosanct in the scientific method, all can be challenged. Compare that with the faith based approach. Is that subject to the same rigour? Is it a dynamic, open ended system?

My perception is that it is not. The reaction of the faithfull when challenged demonstrates that well. Philosophy and Theology cannot "prove" anything, the most casual aquaintance with philosophical debate reveals the sophistry in that statement.

If you believe that my position on a subject is wrong because I have misconstrued the data, we can discuss that. If however you believe that my position on a subject is wrong solely because God (via the Bible, The Talmud, the Koran - whichever) says so, then you are a fundamentalist zealot, and productive discussion is unlikely.

[Optikal]

im terrible when it comes to talking about 'god'... i can go on for hours so ill stop after this, i think the only problem is too few realise religion was our pasts security blanket, a short look into history will tell you there were many religions all battling for power thousands of years ago.. its common sense that says one would rise above the rest eventually giving birth to modern religion, which in itself is based on pure Stories. When it comes to evolution this also falls into the common sense category, the earths magnetic field is no mystery, its a degree now. Time will always pass, wether you are god or not, time is a measure, it can have no end nore beginning, it cannot be stopped, remove the universe and all in it and time will still pass, thanks to our ever increasing time keeping skills we can now geustimate the birth of the known universe..., evolution, religion, biology <-common sense tells me one of those does not match lol

btw, im new to the site, its pretty cool 9/10 (nothings perfect)

[Michael]

evolution, religion, biology <-common sense tells me one of those does not match lol

I agree, better remove the first one. A lot of very religious people were also very good scientist. The person that started modern genetics was a monk.

Religion dose not disagree with science. I have tried to shown some scientific facts (don't know what else I can call them, they are not opinion) that contradict evolution and agree with my religion. I am challegning any one to answer them.

I am not saying any one is wrong because my religion says they are wrong but because science says so (from what I have read) and I am then showing how what I believe (which dose contain religion) it scientifically correct.

Time will always pass, wether you are god or not, time is a measure, it can have no end nore beginning, it cannot be stopped, remove the universe and all in it and time will still pass

As I said before, from what I beleive God made time, and it dose not control him. Time is a measure of change, remove all matter(the universe) there is no change, there is no time. <--philosophy in action.

[warriorscot]

The electrical feild of the earth has always been a ver finicky thing its not really possible to accurately measure it in any useful way as it fluctuates according to various other factors including the spin of the earth. The earth is under many different external forces every impact affects the speed at which the planet spins also gravity has a fairly big part (the earth not being a perfect sphere) and there are hundreds of thousands of significant gravitiational forces acting on our planet that will cause it to speed up and slow down.

Many scientists were religous that is true, but all of the best ones were not christians, the best ancient scinece came from the ancient greeks and early romans whose gods had little impact upon the science they practiced . Many of the scientists from the last 1000 years have been discredited because some bishop or other religous leader deamed the theories contradicted the bible, gallileo was a good example. Also had it been up to the church isac newton would never created so many of his "blasphemous" theories he would never have created calculus or refined the equations of motion. And of the last 50 years relgon and science have been seperated as much as possible and we have had the greatest scientific discoveries in our history.

Also there are several methods of determining the age of the earth, the earths surface is made up of mineral deposits, and we know the rate at which these are deposited and mountian ranges are created from the pressure exerted from the earths mantle the rate at which these have developed is also predictable. There is also the fact that even the bible contradicts this, the oft mentioned floods are indeed proven to have happended more than 6000 years ago in fact the earliest estimate was 12000 years. Also there is the evidence of a clear ice age 65000 years ago , i see that evidence every single day with my own two eyes.(geology also a hobby of mine)

The facts placed up were really opinions science has few facts and those mentioned are themselves open to doubt and question by reliable evidence to the contrary.

Most of the earth does not believe in a god or supreme being, you confuse religion with belief in a god. many religions dont have gods, in asia all the dominant religions dont have any gods at all the religions are codes of life and wisdom. there is also the larger proportion of atheisists than many wish to accept, the affect of communism has taken its toll on the religions patrons on countries where it has been present. There is also the clear shrinking of the amount of those that beileve in gods at all which increases year after year in countries traditionally very religous, although this is a very European phenomenon.

Cultures tend to educate their children to reflect the beliefs of there nation, such is democracy, dinvine intervention will never be taught in Britain because as tha most recent studies indicate most of our nation do not beleive in god making us technically not a protesetant country but an atheist or humanist one. However in other countries divine intervention may be taught because they are still christian countries. It doesnt matter what we think it will be as those people decide hopefully democratically.

[warriorscot]

I quite agree fear of death has traditionally made religion so strong. For me i do not fear death in the slightest, and thus no one can make fear the wrath of a god. Fear chains men to the ground only a man without fear can ascend to the highest echelons of our existense.

[Pi rules]

I quite agree fear of death has traditionally made religion so strong. For me i do not fear death in the slightest, and thus no one can make fear the wrath of a god. Fear chains men to the ground only a man without fear can ascend to the highest echelons of our existense.

Just wondering...
What is there to live for if you do not believe in God and heaven?

I still think that there should at least be a note that evolution is only a theory. As I previously stated, I believe God had a hand in evolution, and I agree with the theistic evolution theory, which is very close to the evolution theory. None of these theories can currently be proved, thus they are only theories. It is only fair to let children know that evolution is only a theory, and that other theories exist.

[warriorscot]

I distinctly remeber being taught of the theory of evolution not of evolution, absolutlely no where in a text book: the fact of evolution or evolution os beyond question of doubt.

Life, who needs a heaven when there are such wonders to be found on earth and in life, i pity people who have heaven to look fordward to there is such a lesser impetus upon life with most people who believe in a glorious afterlife(as can be observed in our modern lives you wont catch an atheist martering himself for something so intangible as a deity), to an atheist life has such a greater meaning and importance than it does to someone of the faith as they know they will only get one go of it and thats it so they are doubly determined to live their life to the utmost of their abilities.

[Michael]

I am going to stop arguing, it is just a two complex subject to prove in a thread like this it takes hundreds of pages to put togeather a solid argument, I can't do that here.

Also this thread is turning to much towards proving what ever religion you believe, and that also takes a lot to prove, I am read a book right now that covers just the basics of proving my religion and it is 600 pages long.

I just don't have time to keep this up for ever, I am sorry. Also I doubt that any one is going to change after reading what has been said on either side of the issue.

[Optikal]

i have a terrible habbit of correcting ones mistakes, there is only one thing in the known universe that is constant.. time.. picture emptieness before the big bang.. time still passes, one last comment on god, the fact that it is written that if you are undecided/sitting on the fence, you will go to [bleep], that alone tells me god is man made, aparently even if im good my whole life because i dnt believe in god i will go to [bleep], thats just plain stupidity. But again, if you believe in god i have no doubt he is real to you, god like evolution is unknown really so all we can do is say our opinions, so i agree, nothing said in here will change anyones mind and it has the potential to drag into an endless discussion. (i have noticed fear of death turns most older people to religion)

[dsenette]

A soul is our immortal and and our spirutal side. Animals also have a soul but theirs dies when they die, so there is a big differance between the two.

have you ever seen a soul? is there a medical test to measure how much soul someone has? how do you know an animal's soul isn't immortal?

[warriorscot]

I reallt hate to say this optikal but time it aint a universal constant, there are a few constants(permittivity of free space, boltzmans constant, avogadros number) time it aint constant it changes on where you are and your velocity through space.

I didnt think it was really the purpose to change peoples minds, its just nice to talk about things like this from time to time.

[Michael]

I didnt think it was really the purpose to change peoples minds, its just nice to talk about things like this from time to time.

Yes true, but it can end up being a never ending argument. I have hundrends of pages of stuff to prove my point of view, but you are going to object to every bit of it, and I only have so much time for a never ending argument.

have you ever seen a soul? is there a medical test to measure how much soul someone has? how do you know an animal's soul isn't immortal?

I supose I would have to prove to Bible and the Catholic Church is correct, and that is far too off topic.

Just one last quote,

Evolutionists believe that the continents have exixted for a least 1 billion years. However, the continents are being eroded at a rates that would level them in much less that twenty-five million years

even allowing for huge change of rate, you can't get a billion years.