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Two hard drives 'down' already - Eeek!


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#31
Macboatmaster

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Well I am a litle hesitant to make suggestions in view of this

I consider myself very experienced with PCs (been building PC systems since 2000)


but my money would be on the PSU, or the motherboard

I cannot see it being what I origninally suspected the DVD - in view of this latest development

There is a chance I think that PSU was not supplying power correctly and therefore the hard drive would not accept the write cmds correctly for the install

If it were not for the statement above I would ask were you certain the stand-offs were right for the board and all connections properly made, but in view of your experience I think we can skip that one.

If it was me - I would breadboard it - ie strip it and connect out of case.

As I am sure you know, modern PSU`s cannot be reliably tested with multimeters, as they must be under load and even connecting power on and earth on the psu output will not place it under load.

However it may be starting point, other than that you are into a PSU tester of course which as you know is a dummy load.

OR another PSU.

I opine that the out of case test is the first starting point.


PSU
I would urge caution
Using a multi meter is the most unsatisfactory of testing.

Firstly, one slip and you would NOT be the first to make a mistake and it may very well be goodbye power supply -

If you try it with power connected to the motherboard, rather than shorting power on - green and black -COM earth and you make a mistake, it may very well be goodbye motherboard

Also, the multimeter needs to be of a certain standard, before the results are reliable

Additionally pin outs are different on the ATX 24 pin v2 and the ATX w20 pin.
So if you ignore my advice and go ahead be extermely cautious about following any online guide that suggests what voltage you should see on what pin

See this
http://www.hardwares...Supplies/181/14

If your PSU tester is of a known make - rather than the PSU tester made in ? brand, then that is far more reliable than any multi meter tester.

See this as well, by one of our staff members Digerati (Retired Staff) as to why you should NOT consider using a multi-meter
To properly and conclusively test a power supply unit (PSU), it must be tested under various realistic "loads" then analyzed for excessive ripple and other anomalies. This is done by a qualified technician using an oscilloscope or power analyzer - sophisticated (and expensive) electronic test equipment requiring special training to operate, and a basic knowledge of electronics theory to understand the results. Therefore, conclusively testing a power supply is done in properly equipped electronic repair facilities.

Fortunately, there are other options that are almost as good. I keep a FrozenCPU Ultimate PSU Tester in my tool bag when I am "in the field" and don't have a good spare power supply to swap in. While not a certain test, they are better than nothing. The advantage of this model is that it has an LCD readout of the voltage. With an actual voltage readout, you have a better chance of detecting a "failing" PSU, or one barely within specified ATX Form Factor Standard tolerances. Lesser models use LEDs to indicate the voltage is just within some "range". These are less informative, considerably cheaper, but still useful for detecting PSUs that have already "failed". Newegg has several testers to choose from. All these testers contain a "dummy load" to fool the PSU into thinking it is connected to a motherboard, and therefore allows the PSU to power on, if able, without being attached to a motherboard - great for testing fans, but again, it is not a true load or suitable for conclusive testing.

Note the required voltage tolerance ranges:Posted Image
NOTE: Disregard the -5VDC reading. It is no longer used.

Swapping in a known good supply is a tried and true method of troubleshooting used for years, even by pros. If you have access to a suitably sized, spare power supply, carefully remove the suspect supply and replace it with the known good one, and see if the problem goes away.

I do not recommend using a multimeter to test power supplies. To do it properly, that is, under a realistic load, the voltages on all the pins must be measured while the PSU is attached to the motherboard and the computer powered on. This requires poking (with some considerable force) two hard and sharp, highly conductive meter probes into the main power connector, deep in the heart of the computer. One tiny slip can destroy the motherboard, and everything plugged into it. It is not worth the risk considering most multimeters, like plug-in testers, do not measure, or reveal any unwanted and potentially disruptive AC components to the DC voltages.

Note the ATX Form Factor standard does not "require" specific color coding for power supply connector wiring. It has recommendations but manufacturers often do not follow them. Sadly, many testing guides or tutorials will refer to wire color only and that can lead to improper testing.

The voltages can be checked in the BIOS Setup Menus of most motherboards but they do not reveal ripple or other anomalies either. And of course, booting into the BIOS Setup Menu requires a working PSU.

As always, before working in the interior of the computer case, take necessary ESD precautions to ensure static buildup in your body does not discharge through and destroy any sensitive devices. Unplug from the wall and touch bare metal of the case before reaching in. And remember, anything that plugs into the wall can kill. Do not open the power supply's case unless you are a qualified electronics technician. There are NO user-serviceable parts inside a power supply. If you do not have a tester or a suitable spare to swap in, take the PSU to a qualified technician for testing.


BREADBOARDING
Posted Image
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#32
gruff

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Earlier today, I ran memtest86 for a couple of hours and the RAM checked out ok.

I just put a PSU tester on all the psu plugs and it looks ok.

I'm about to put my 'Qi Guan codes' PCI system tester card in and see what it shows.

Thanks for yout time and input.
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#33
Macboatmaster

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You are welcome.

Please keep in touch and let us know how you go on.
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#34
gruff

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The PCI card system tester showed no faults. This pointed my finger at the 320GB hard drive (again).

I/we were misled by the SeaTools reporting it was ok, and that one time when it worked perfectly in an old Pentium pc, and that DISKPART worked ok with it. I now think that the drive was, in fact, already failing and the clue to this was that I could install ubuntu, but it wouldn't boot up. Another red herring was all the posts on the internet regarding this problem = lots of people were getting the same windows installer error message I was getting, which led me to believe the problem lay with the installer.

Anyway, today, I managed to find another old 40GB drive and installing this in the PC enabled windows to be installed with no problem. I've informed my friend that his 320GB drive is kaput and so he's going to PCworld (!) tomorrow to buy a new SS drive I found online for him (pcworld do have some good offers on SSDs for the next few days).

I was also fooled by my old 40GB drive (that I had in a caddy) was working fine in the caddy, yet as soon as I tried it in the new build, it failed. This led me to suspect a hardware issue (maybe even a bios virus). This drive doesn't even show up in the bios on startup any more.

So, it appears that two failing hard drives within the space of a couple of days threw me off the track. I apologise for wasting your time... I should've triple checked the hard drive (by trying a third drive).

Another thing I have learned is to not dismiss SeaTools completely. Today, I used it to revive a very old (clapped out) 40GB drive by using the 'zero wipe' option (this was the drive I used for a successful windows install). Apparently, this checks and reallocates any bad sectors (so, in effect, it is a low-level format).

The moral of the story? Always keep a couple of working hard drives to hand.

Thank you very much for bearing with me on this issue. My friend gave me a tenner for what should've been a straighforward mobo, etc move to a new case. If you PM me your uk bank details, I'll gladly split it with you.

Have a good evening. Thanks, once agin for your help,
geoffas.
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#35
Macboatmaster

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Firstly thanks for the offer

If you PM me your uk bank details, I'll gladly split it with you.


Although it is very kind of you, your appreciation is more than enough.
I, like all the other staff work here as a hobby, because we enjoy it. There are indeed professionals, amongst the staff who still provide the online help free, for the same reason.

If you wish you may do as on my signature notes. That will be very kind of you
Please be kind to all members - click the Blue + (LIKE) on quality posts that are helpful!!

There are just two points I would make.
1. It is a common misconception that a utility such as Seatools or indeed any disk repair utility - repairs bad sectors. That is not the case. What it does is to recover the data from the bad sector and rewrite it to a good sector. Windows chkdsk, then marks the sector as bad so that data is not re-written to it in future. However the sector remains bad and although a HDD the size of the 320 Gb may last for some considerable time with bad sectors as a sector is 512 bytes, which of course is a mere fraction of the capacity, once bad sectors are found it is generally a time limited function and of course data is at risk.
The reason being that the recovery of the data from the bad sector is not always possible.

More to the point if the bad sector occurs in the Master File Table, the Boot configuration data on vista or 7 or on XP what was known as the boot.ini Windows simply will not load., and once bad sectors occur, there is no way of knowing where the next bad sector will be located.

2. Backup - complete image on windows 7 - on an external drive, together with either scheduled backup- or simple copy and paste of important individual docs images etc is the way to go of course

Finally thanks for being so great to work with and my kind regards.
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