[ScHwErV]

Opera has yet to carve out a niche for itself. Suing Microsoft isn't going to do it. They'd be better served putting their energies to better use.

And their money, its not cheap to sue MS.

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They'd be better served putting their energies to better use.

Agreed with you there, it did surprise me a bit, as Opera always seemed to me to be the most timid player on the team.

The article states that they are doing this "on behalf of all consumers who are tired of having a monopolist make choices for them", which I believe is a more valiant and noteworthy endeavor. After seeing this, I changed my opinion of the situation. It doesn't say all consumers, it says all consumers that are tired of it. I'm one of them at times.

[Ax238]

They'd be better served putting their energies to better use.

Agreed with you there, it did surprise me a bit, as Opera always seemed to me to be the most timid player on the team.

The article states that they are doing this "on behalf of all consumers who are tired of having a monopolist make choices for them", which I believe is a more valiant and noteworthy endeavor. After seeing this, I changed my opinion of the situation. It doesn't say all consumers, it says all consumers that are tired of it. I'm one of them at times.

[Major Payne]

I see no compelling reason people should stay with Internet Explorer...

First load is much faster than FireFox or Opera. It's more secure.

Firefox is only slower in some cases because pipelining is set to off by default. From a cold start, IE is way ahead in loading faster. As to fastest? Depends on the stats you garner:

World's Fastest
Apple Claims Fastest Browser
Which is the fastest web browser?
World's smallest and fastest web browser (Not well known )


Most secure? Again, depends where you get your stats and date of article:
Microsoft lauds IE as the most secure browser
Microsoft lauds IE as 'the most secure browser' (zdnet.com's)
Firefox NOT Most Secure Browser Ever (2005 )
Opera Web browser is faster and more secure than other browser


Ensure Your Browser Is Secure (Nice check by VeriSign)

No matter the outcome here, I will always use FF as my main browser since it is the most CSS2 compliant browser available to date. Just wish FF developers would make it totally CSS2 or, better yet, CSS3 compliant.

Ron

[Ax238]

I knew we'd see the Major in on this one! Thanks for the input Ron, much appreciated.

[Major Payne]

You're getting to know me too well!

Ron

[stettybet0]

Personally, I use Firefox on my Vista Ultimate x64 machine, because IE7 crashes very, very often for me (when opening a new tab, when minimizing or maximizing, when viewing a webpage with Flash in it... to name a few cases). I don't use Opera because I used Firefox first and I have no reason to dislike it.

Back to the original topic, I agree that Microsoft should be allowed to bundle its software with its OS. No one is forcing you to buy their OS, and no one is forcing you to use their software even if you buy the OS. I find it rather ironic that Microsoft is being subject to these types of lawsuits due only to its popularity. I mean, Macs come with Safari installed, but you don't see these lawsuits coming at Apple.

[Ax238]

The issue here is that Microsoft is creating a de facto standard that is broken, since it is a monopoly and doesn't always like to play by the rules. Many developers [lazy] code websites for Internet Explorer and don't bother to check if it works on other browsers. Or if they do, they use browser sniffing that only detects one or two browsers. This in turn causes many users to only use Internet Explorer, which further affirms the broken standard and limits the ability for web browsers to progress completely beyond tag soup. So no, it's not just because of popularity.

Now it is getting better, but there is still a long way to go. It does hinder the adoption of new standards if the old ones aren't even followed.

The difference between Internet Explorer and Safari is that Safari actually does pretty well in following standards.

[ScHwErV]

The issue here is that Microsoft is creating a de facto standard that is broken, since it is a monopoly and doesn't always like to play by the rules.

Let me start out by saying that I do not mean to point any of my comments directly at you. First, its not a monopoly because its the biggest and most popular. Its not a monopoly at all.

1. Exclusive control by one group of the means of producing or selling a commodity or service: "Monopoly frequently ... arises from government support or from collusive agreements among individuals" Milton Friedman.
2. Law A right granted by a government giving exclusive control over a specified commercial activity to a single party.
3.
a. A company or group having exclusive control over a commercial activity.
b. A commodity or service so controlled.
4.
a. Exclusive possession or control: arrogantly claims to have a monopoly on the truth.
b. Something that is exclusively possessed or controlled: showed that scientific achievement is not a male monopoly.

Microsoft does not have exclusive control over the browser market, not only do they do nothing to keep others from creating and distributing alternative browsers, they allow easy install of said competition. This is not a monopoly, this term does not apply here.

Also, there is this assumption that MS doesn't follow the "standards" because they do not want to follow the rules. MS has said that they still have to support a ton of older apps out there and haven't found a way to support those and follow these new "standards" yet. Sure, Opera and FF follow more standards, but many of the older web apps do not work in Opera or FF.

The creation of standards is worthless without any way to enforce the new standards. There is no such enforcement ability, so going on and on about standards is meaningless. Unless it greatly increases the function of the internet in some way, no one in the general computing public will care about standards.

To be clear, I am not a fan of IE. I do not use it unless necessary. I only use FireFox on my computer and I use Opera Mini on my phone. I just believe that this lawsuit is a farce and a publicity stunt. The courts should not be there for petty squabbles between companies. I also do not believe that "standards" from a non-binding body should be the measure as to whether a software is worthy or not.

[Ax238]

Thanks for the information, no I do not take anything you say as directed towards me. I'm enjoying this conversation, as well as learning other points of view along the way.

If Microsoft isn't a monopoly, why did the Washington DC Court of Appeals uphold a ruling that it is? Why does the European Commission call it a monopoly?

Also, standards aren't meant to be enforced, but are rather guidelines to follow. There is no reason that they should be enforced. But Microsoft Corporation is itself a member of W3C, so I think it a matter of principle for it to follow the standards set up by the consortium to which it belongs. I understand needing to have backwards compatibility for legacy applications. With all the resources that Microsoft has, surely they are capable of being on the front-lines of emerging technologies as well.

As a personal note, I think it'd be great if users are given the choice which web browser to use from the start. It would force developers to code websites for more than just one or two browsers. I don't necessarily feel users should be left without any browser at all when they buy a Windows OS, that's just backwards.

[ScHwErV]

The ruling calling MS a monopoly in America started in 1998 and ended in early 1999 when Win98 First Edition was in its infancy. I think calling them a monopoly now is a stretch to be sure.

Also, the EU "Monopoly" suit was not only a preemptive strike, but it was associated with Windows Media Player and had nothing to do with the browsers. They sued to make sure that MS couldn't make Windows Media Player a Monopoly to stifle competition. As a note, it was not specifically the European Union, it was brought upon by Real Player.

[Ax238]

A real-world monopolist needs not have 100% of the market. It merely needs enough market share to have the ability to distort the free market in a way that adversely affects its competitors. The reason is that society is not homogeneous, so a high market share - along with other technological factors - creates local monopolies in one market or section of a market.

Microsoft is a de facto monopolist in certain markets, including the consumer desktop and many of the corporate realms. For example, Microsoft currently holds roughly 90% in the Desktop market. I would also concede that Microsoft may no longer be a monopolist in the browser market, although I don't think I ever stated otherwise.

[ScHwErV]

Exclusive control by one group of the means of producing or selling a commodity or service: "Monopoly frequently ... arises from government support or from collusive agreements among individuals"

A real-world monopolist needs not have 100% of the market. It merely needs enough market share to have the ability to distort the free market in a way that adversely affects its competitors.

Your verbiage actually contradicts the definition of Monopoly. Using MS as an example, they do not have any collusive agreements with hardware manufacturers to hinder the availability of open competition. You can install MAC OS, Linux, and many other OSs on the same box that you can install Windows on.

Does MS have 95% of the desktop marketshare? Yes. Is that because its a monopoly? No, its because they have the most popular OS out there. This is not their fault, you have to blame the consumers for this one.

MS doesn't do anything to dissuade hardware vendors from selling other OSs on their computers. You can buy a Dell with linux on it (mainly servers, but still). Since there is no collusion to make it a closed market, there can be no monopoly.

[admin]

http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/

As a team, we’ve spent the last year heads down working hard on IE8. Last week, we achieved an important milestone that should interest web developers. IE8 now renders the “Acid2 Face” correctly in IE8 standards mode.

[dsenette]

IMHO....the concept of whining about antitrust or monopoly issues are ridiculous....ScHwErV's "big kid on the basketball court" analogy hits this right on the head...and it's a large portion of "our" (mostly the US but now Europe is joining in on the fun) overly litigious society..."my marketing department sucks....the other guy's marketing department doesn't suck...maybe i can sue them and call them a monopoly so that my crappy marketing department doesn't have to work harder"......there have been VERY VERY few true monopolies in modern history (check your zipper...does it say YKK on it? i bet it does) there are many companies who have a vast majority of their market share but how can you fault them for being good at what they do? they're in business to make money...if they're better at making money than the other bunch of yahoos...then so be it....

But if the skilled short kid wants to bring up discussion on leveling the playing field so that the coach doesn't always put in the clumsy tall kid, why not allow him to?

it's up to the little kid to prove it to the coach that he can play not up to the coach to just assume it....i always hated those kids in school and i hate them now as business owners...why not take ownership of your product and it's poor market standings? how bout advertising? opera didn't even advertise well when they were charging for their product...how in the world could they expect someone to choose them?

As a personal note, I think it'd be great if users are given the choice which web browser to use from the start.

you do have that choice...on any operating system....as soon as you boot up your machine...go and download whatever browser you want! A LOT of computer buyers today can't discern the difference between the different options in the RAM setup of their machines before they buy them...you want to add a browser choice to the customization package? people will just leave that area blank and move on....it's like complaining about a button on the dashboard of your car that you never use....don't like the button? don't use it...it won't break anything not to touch IE

[Ax238]

I'm glad you guys all disagree with me, I like having my own opinion and view on issues like this. Looks like I jumped into a pit of crocodiles though . admin, I read that article just this morning, good for the IE8 dev team ! Maybe we'll get to see Firefox 3 do the same next!

Let's lay aside the discussion of monopoly since it's not really going anywhere, although I love the board game. If you wish, I concede to you ScHwErV that Microsoft is not a dictionary definition of a monopoly, but I will still believe it is a virtual monopoly. Let it be known that I've nothing personal against Microsoft, nor am I fan of one party suing another party.

One thing I'd like to know: Why is bringing something to the attention of the proper authorities considered whining? All they are doing is bringing a valid issue before an overseer to determine whether or not there is anything wrong with the current situation. If there is something amiss, great for Opera to bring it to someone's attention. If there isn't, both parties will continue to go about business as usual. I don't think my petty words can or will make a difference either way, I'm just interested in seeing what the outcome is.

Also, of course people can go and download another internet browser. Do all users know this? No. Do all users know there is a choice? No. Will ignorant users do this if/when they find out there is a choice? Possibly. Will this spur more innovation and better access to all websites by all browsers across the board? I certainly think so.

Can you use Firefox or Opera to download Microsoft updates from their update site? I sure can't. How about using Opera for video on MSN? Another thing is that every time I obtain an update for Internet Explorer, all of my Internet programs on the Programs tab of Internet Options are reset to all Microsoft programs. This prompts me to question sometimes whether Microsoft really cares what the user wants.

I don't know about you, but where I'm from, many coaches love playing favorites.