[Ammalgam]

Hypothetical question, does anyone here plan (at this point based on what they have seen) to buy any new hardware to run vista? What are some of the things that make you happy or tick you off about the Operating System?

I am doing research for my website...
Mike

[removed link]

Edited by admin, 12 May 2006 - 10:45 PM.

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i will not if that i perfer to Linux

[skykiki]

i will not if that i perfer to Linux

[terabyte]

Yeah im thinking of getting a new system just for Vista...and to be able to burn DVDs....

[warriorscot]

The big reason most will upgrade DX10, games are fast becoming one of the largest enterainment mediums and whatever they need to work people will get.

[Ammalgam]

The big reason most will upgrade DX10, games are fast becoming one of the largest enterainment mediums and whatever they need to work people will get.

My question is, with the proliferation of Xboxes and PS3's etc, why wouldn't gaming for the PC (and hence the DX 10's etc) become more and more irrelevant?

I used to want to buy a PC purely because Macs didnt have games. Now that I have an Xbox, I really dont play games on the PC that much and It will be a major factor in my next purchase (it will be a Mac).

Mike
Windows-vista-update.com

[warriorscot]

Are you actually kidding, Console gaming is very far behind PCs in terms of selection, quality and technology the PS3 and 360 currently have a slight edge on a pc but the xbox360 will lose it as soon as dx10 cards for the pc are released and the PS3 i would say within 6 months of release if not less for PCs to outpace it. Consoles not only have a power and functionality disadvantage they are limited to using controllers and very few of these can offer the functionality and performance of a keyboard and mouse for FPS, RTS and a lesser extent RPG the 3 most popular game genres.

PC gaming is also growing alot in popularity as people realise the greater potential of the PC over the console and its general flexability. Consoles are fine if you occasionally play games but for those whose preffered entertainment is games they are sorely lacking, and PCs in the long run are often cheaper because games for PC have to be much more competitvley priced.

I would never buy a mac for a few reasons, one the hardware is now just bog standard PC fair, its poorly assemled with some fairly inferior kit, and they make dell pricing look good. And ive never been keen on the OS as i was most severely put off by OS8 and 9 and never had the patience for 10 as it takes twice as long to do the job i wanted to do in windows. It seems to me the only advantage to the macs is they come with ilife which i would never use anyway or use some of the really amazing windows apps to do the jobs which people seem to forget about.

[Ammalgam]

Are you actually kidding, Console gaming is very far behind PCs in terms of selection, quality and technology the PS3 and 360 currently have a slight edge on a pc but the xbox360 will lose it as soon as dx10 cards for the pc are released and the PS3 i would say within 6 months of release if not less for PCs to outpace it. Consoles not only have a power and functionality disadvantage they are limited to using controllers and very few of these can offer the functionality and performance of a keyboard and mouse for FPS, RTS and a lesser extent RPG the 3 most popular game genres.

PC gaming is also growing alot in popularity as people realise the greater potential of the PC over the console and its general flexability. Consoles are fine if you occasionally play games but for those whose preffered entertainment is games they are sorely lacking, and PCs in the long run are often cheaper because games for PC have to be much more competitvley priced.

I would never buy a mac for a few reasons, one the hardware is now just bog standard PC fair, its poorly assemled with some fairly inferior kit, and they make dell pricing look good. And ive never been keen on the OS as i was most severely put off by OS8 and 9 and never had the patience for 10 as it takes twice as long to do the job i wanted to do in windows. It seems to me the only advantage to the macs is they come with ilife which i would never use anyway or use some of the really amazing windows apps to do the jobs which people seem to forget about.

All fair points but some things to keep in mind:

1) After spending 400 to 600 dollars on an Xbox 360, a lot of people plan to do a lot of their gaming there (as opposed to the PC or both).

2) I agree that the feel of the keyboard is great for FPs's etc but that by itself wouldnt be enough to determine a hardware choice.

3) Faced with the prospect of spending 40 to 60 dollars on a game, I would rather (at this point) buy the console version. I have a larger TV (60") and while I could hook my PC up to it, I'd rather not.

There is no right or wrong answer here, just various opinions. Based on my glance at Vista, I think that a MAC has suddenly become a lot more attractive. The GUI that Microsoft are perfecting with Betas now is old hat to seasoned Mac users.

It's the old 80/20 rule. I use my PC to surf the web, use Office and check/respond to email. At this point, I really dont see myself getting back into the whole codec/driver/graphic card/ram/monitor/viurus/spyware upgrades/discussions ever again.

I have built and rebuilt PC's for the past 8 to 10 years. At this point, I just want my OS to boot up, work and shut down. I have become less and less interested in the maintenance required for Microsoft OS's.

Not a knock on anyone else, just my opinion.

All my friends are happy with their Macs and so far, the only major deficiency I see with Macs is their games. My Xbox fixes that just fine.

Mike

www.windows-vista-update.com

[terabyte]

Those are some good points Ammalgam/Mike,
but I am with the opinion of warrioscott...
I plan to spend 500-600$ dollars candian..and I expect to get a pretty
powerful system that can play the next 3 years worth of games without a problem.

These reasons compel me to prefer PC over console:
1. The pricing is the same as these next-gen console
(well except the Wii...but the high-end PS3 is priced at 660$ canadian)

2. I don't have to worry about getting a high-def TV.

3. I prefer less buttons, the less complex the game, the more fun I have...
I hate how some games expect you to use
20-30 button configurations on the keyboard like flight sims and those Tom Clancey series...

4. Most of the people I know don't pay for their PC games...so for a lot of people, the savings alone is a reason to love PC
(Which I don't condone...)

[warriorscot]

Windows is an investment when it comes to safety and ease twenty minutes when you install and some good habits will keep most people safe for several years ive never had a piece of malware that i wasnt suspecting would be there. And ive had this pc a year now and ive only had to do two install of windows and one was to partition my hard drive again nothing to do with the OS. And The size of PCs is rivalling that of consoles if you want a console size pc or smaller thats no problem easily done. And pcs have great wireless options you can get wireless terminals to get it to the TV, ive got a big tv and when my PC is hooked up to it it puts an xbox to shame.

[Ammalgam]

Windows is an investment when it comes to safety and ease twenty minutes when you install and some good habits will keep most people safe for several years ive never had a piece of malware that i wasnt suspecting would be there. And ive had this pc a year now and ive only had to do two install of windows and one was to partition my hard drive again nothing to do with the OS. And The size of PCs is rivalling that of consoles if you want a console size pc or smaller thats no problem easily done. And pcs have great wireless options you can get wireless terminals to get it to the TV, ive got a big tv and when my PC is hooked up to it it puts an xbox to shame.

Warrior,
I wish I could agree with your opinion about the safety and ease of Windows installs. As someone who regularly installs multiple programs and torrents etc I get to see the worst side of the web as a matter of course. I simply dont hear a lot about Mac Viruses and spyware. I hear a lot about PC viruses and spyware. At this point in my career, I can take a PC apart and put it back together again, repair the OS, work with partitions, configure the BIOS etc etc.

I have had to find out all this stuff because of the patent instability of Windows. Anyone who tells me that they have had absolutely no problems with Windows has either had a very EXCEPTIONAL experience or has had a memory lapse. There are service packs after service packs for Windows OS's.

The way I see it, PC's are like a challenge to hackers and coders simply because they are so vulnerable and they have so much marketshare so what does this mean for Vista?

Here's what I see...

Vista is released. Then a service Pack. then critical fixes. then driver incompatibility etc etc etc I love Microsoft but at some point it's like enough already. I just want to boot up, work/play and then shut down. If I want maintenance, I'll get a pet.

Don't get me wrong, if a person is younger and has the patience to go through the learning curve of multiple installs, RAM swaps, spyware etc etc, by all means have at it. I have just done this for a decade and enough is enough.

I hope the tone of this post is passionate but not angry. I am soo not angry and I enjoy the dialogue and the various opinions so I love to hear responses...

Mike

www.windows-vista-update.com

[warriorscot]

The large amount of malware designed around windows isnt really to do with any amount of vulnerabilities the mac OS has a fe itself its just not worth it to exploit them, whereas windows its much more popular and exploiting vulnerabilites earns some people a rther good living. And every piece of software needs fixes and patches sometimes even mac software its the nature of all software to need it, and you seem to be blaming some of your hardware problems on windows which isnt fair to the OS itself as its software it does what it can with the hardware. Driver compatibility ive never had a problem with windows drivers are easy to find and easy to use and never in all my years on windows has a service pack given driver issues to me or anyone i know.

Drivers are one of windows greatest strengths because of there compatibility and the fact that everything has windows drivers. I wouldnt also buy software that didnt get patches and upgrades over time i would feel very annoyed not to get any after sales support.

Yes spyware and malware is a pain but it is for most very avoidable, maintenance wise, if you dont get any malware short of a hardware failure windows is very reliable the only maintenance is virus scans and defragmentation and macs need defraged as well they use the same hardware as anyother PC theres nothing special about it.

Vista is also a totally different beast to XP security wise it has 5 years of technological advancements on XP, which is something people forget XP is 5 years old more really if you count dev time considering its age reliability is impressive, XP came out when Macs were on OS8 and 9 and both of those were abismal and so was the mac hardware at that time it looked good but thats where the positive experience ended, we had macs when i was at school in the computing department and students, teachers and the IT admin were very very pleased to see the back of them as they couldnt be repaired and general performance was poor and the software available wasnt as good as the apps for the same purpose available on windows or linux.

So much of windows is down to the user, it gives users alot of freedom to do what they want, which is great of you know what you are doing but alot of people like to think they know what they are doing and cause problems themselves, that doesnt happen alot on a mac because its harder to get in there and mess with the guts of it.

Work wise i could never use the apple i just dont like the software and the interface sure you can get windows apps ported across but whats the point in that its really hard to get some pieces of software, i can go into a shop an buy MS office for windows i have to find and specially order it for mac thats just pain, and i need office specifically as do alot of people.

And play wise how could windows be easier i dont get it, i have 3 folders on my desktop one for vids one for music and one for games it takes two double clicks fo the mouse to play watch or listen to any piece of media i have on my system how much easier can that get, on a mac i can tell you it took me alot longer to play a game and there was no choice whatsoever, and ive nto got any codec issues with windows you install the klite pack and you never have another codec issue.

Also with windows you get choice, there are alot of apps for windows and alot of competition while many are ported to mac alot arent and alot of pieces of open source software are windows and linux only which sucks for apple but it means there is alot of competition and driving force for the windows apps and users see this advantage as apps get faster and smarter quicker.

Alot of people say how easy macs are to use, but i can never see how you can get easier than windows either if you set it up the way you want you can do absolutley anything any way you want, you can have it the way you want it which i always liked as i change the way i want it to feel and look sometimes, OSX is fine its pretty but there is one way of doing things which is a good way for all the things most people need but its hard to change and i dont like that and if you change it isnt as good.
I want something i can change the look and feel of with a few clicks or a new app and it would be unrecongnisable from what it was before i could never do that in OSX.

I also dont see how having no problems with windows is exceptional, i know ALOT of people who have had no problems at all, none of my immediate family members have ever had a problem to my knowledge(me being the fix it guy i would know) none of my friends have(except my lan friends but they like messing with computers so breaking stuff is expected). Even being on here hasnt changed my mind about that because there are millions of windows users and we dont see millions of problems.

[Ammalgam]

I also dont see how having no problems with windows is exceptional, i know ALOT of people who have had no problems at all, none of my immediate family members have ever had a problem to my knowledge(me being the fix it guy i would know) none of my friends have(except my lan friends but they like messing with computers so breaking stuff is expected). Even being on here hasnt changed my mind about that because there are millions of windows users and we dont see millions of problems.

Hey warrior,

All good points. As to the amount of problems windows users face, open this link ( http://support.micro...com/kb/811113/) in a separate window and you can see that Microsoft have a different opinion about the amount of problems out there.

Just look at the amount of things they had to fix. Take a look at what the vendor is confessing they had to fix! If any other company but Microsoft had released such an incomplete and vulnerable code base, they would be laughed right out of town.

It's important to keep things in perspective. We lose sight of the fact that it should be UNACCEPTABLE to release code that has so many vulnerabilities and bugs. Because of time and experience, we are now used to it and expect that level of code from MSFT. The truth is still that it is an unacceptably high number of code defects.

Now granted, these are included in a Fix but it still tells you a lot about the amount of errors that are faced by Windows users. I use Windows 2003 server as an OS because in my experience, Windows XP is just too unstable. It slows down over time, requires too much maintenance and drama to keep optimized etc etc etc..

Now in light of that, maybe you can see why i say that I find it hard to believe that Windows users have a consistently smooth user experience...

Like I said, no right or wong answers here, just good dialogue.

Mike

www.windows-vista-update.com

[warriorscot]

You would be surprised at the amount of errors you can pick up in apps and vendors dont admit they just fix them and dont mention it, happens in games ALOT and it happens in alot of other apps. And when you consider the complexity itself its surprising there isnt more, but most errors most people will never encounter ive not had one error on that list ever. Most fixes are not major problems or indeed common ones MS can leave alot of things instead of fixing them because the majority wont have any problems.

IF you look alot of those faults fixed in service packs arent code problems per say but additions that have had to be made because of hardware changes over the years since the development a lack of hindsight perhaps but its hard to predict how fast hardware develops, and thats not alot of fixes at all ive seen patches for apps with over 200 bug fixes before, you code something so complex you are going to get bugs and conflicts especially on something that has to work and operate apps from other developers whom they have no control of, alot of bugs caused in windows arent MS related but caused by other peoples apps that they have had to fix.

Windows XP is just too unstable. It slows down over time, requires too much maintenance and drama to keep optimized etc etc etc..

You obviosuly never used OS9 after about 6 months some imacs were so slow it was painful to watch people use them. It had alot of the same problems XP has, and i dont get where you are getting XP is unstable if it was so unstable then why does the majority of computers users use it, if it was that bad no amount of money and discounts from MS would get people to use it.

And i have nothing for respect for the guys at MS and there code, f when i learned how to programme i can tell you bugs happen even on tiny little pieces of code, let alone something so complex as windows the whole works with everything plug and play approach is very hard to do and they do it well yes it causes bugs but i would rather have it as not have it and have fewer bugs. Also consider that if Windows wasnt as big an OS its very unlikely those bugs would have been discovered of the Mac windows markets were swapped i bet you would find OSX getting its every little bug picked up on.

OSX is half decent OS its biggest flaw is that apple wont sell it standalone as there hardware is crap, if they sold it standalone on x86 then they would get more uptake and alot of hardware and software issues would disappear, but ill bet you anything if the uptake gets anywhere close to windows youll see the same problems cropping up OSX as you do with windows. And it still has the enourmous disadvatage of very poor game support, even linux is getting better game support than macs. And given that PC gaming is only becoming more popular thats a problem, consoles are fine for occasional gamers but anyone serious wont put up with them and the high cost. Thats the biggest reason macs will never be big, windows has the gamer market and its a BIG market and as long as they keep putting the cash into R&D like they do now no one will touch them on that front.

But XP doesnt need that much maintenance as you seem to think it does, seriously there are a maybe four apps that if you have them from the start you can go for years without needing a reinstall if ever: Adaware, A good AV(avast or Nod), Spybot for mopping up and tune up or something similar tune up does a really good job of keeping the system optimised and it does it automatically as well as introducing other customisations but there are alternatives that do the same job. These things should probably be built into the OS like they are with OSX but thats not the philosophy of windows the apple philosphpy leans towards integration the windows leans towards comaptibility both sides have advantages and disadvatages but to me compatibility is more important than having everything loaded into the OS.

Edited by warriorscot, 23 May 2006 - 10:37 AM.

[Ammalgam]

Well lets end this by agreeing to disagree.

I have nothing but repect for you and other members on this forum.

As I continue to say, there is no right and wrong, just various opinions.

Fun chatting with ya

Mike
www.windows-vista-update.com

[warriorscot]

Ach no one loves a good chat anymore it always nice to find people willing to have a nice debate, theres nothing better than sharing opinions and arguing your point.

It was indeed very fun to chat. More chatting always available here its nice to have a applevs windows discussion without recieving hate mail from fanboys(this actually happened here was amazed).