[Ltangelic]

the opening ceremony was awesome....it's amazing that most of it was done with people (basically everything that wasn't that giant LCD screen...which was also freakin sweet)

...anyone else feel like some of the judging MIGHT be swayed in the chinese direction in some events (i mainly got that feeling during the gymnastics stuff)?....also...if all of the chinese women's team are actually "of competition age"...i'll eat my shoe

In a certain sense, I agree with dsenette. But the strange thing is, NONE of the judges were from China (if I remember correctly), why would they be biased towards the Chinese team? There are two explanations for this: The judges just love the girls from China OR the judges think that China has been a fantastic host of this year's Olympics and they deserve a gold in every way. There may be other explanations, but that's all I can think of. About their ages, I'm not sure. But still, some people look young when they are actually older, and conversely.

And yup, the Opening Ceremony was remarkable. I'm proud of my motherland for pulling off such a spectacular show. The advantage is that China has a huge population, and I think the Beijing Olympics Organising Committee did a good job making use of that advantage. (Just like how CCP mobilised 30000 troops to rescue the Sichuan earthquake victims not long ago)

Edited by Ltangelic, 18 August 2008 - 10:45 PM.

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I agree with Ltangelic here. None of the judges were from China, though I definitely wouldn't blame them if they thought that every Chinese deserved gold The only thing I thought really unfair was the gymnastics tiebreaker, where they take off the next lowest score from the judges, and then average that. A better way, in my opinion, would be to add back the lowest and highest scores that they took off before averaging, average it again, and compare that. Though that does add in the potential complications of, to quote Bela, "incompetent judges"...

I think most people on these Olympics gymnastics teams look younger than they really are, maybe because everyone on the teams is shorter than average... for example, Nastia Liukin is 18, but she's only like 5' if I remember correctly.

Edited by Fredil, 19 August 2008 - 09:22 AM.

[Chopin]

I agree with Ltangelic here. None of the judges were from China, though I definitely wouldn't blame them if they thought that every Chinese deserved gold The only thing I thought really unfair was the gymnastics tiebreaker, where they take off the next lowest score from the judges, and then average that. A better way, in my opinion, would be to add back the lowest and highest scores that they took off before averaging, average it again, and compare that. Though that does add in the potential complications of, to quote Bela, "incompetent judges"...

I think most people on these Olympics gymnastics teams look younger than they really are, maybe because everyone on the teams is shorter than average... for example, Nastia Liukin is 18, but she's only like 5' if I remember correctly.

Edited by Fredil, 19 August 2008 - 09:22 AM.

[sari]

Gymnasts do tend to be short, but Nastia and Shawn and the others at least look their age, even with being shorter than average.

[dsenette]

well i don't think the concern over their age is based on height....the average height in most of asia is between 5' and 5'5"...so that's not the concern....and it's also generally accepted that people of asian decent (especially females) tend to look young for their age....the issue is that the girls on the china team look underdeveloped and not fully matured (i.e. under age)...i'd guess the average age is about 12...

and as for the judging bias....without getting into politics here....there are a LOT of reasons why someone who's not chinese would vote in their favor (visa revocations are really hard to fight)

[stettybet0]

The announcers were discussing yesterday the two reasons why China gets an advantage in judging. One is that the crowd cheers louder for China, which could affect the judging, especially in a close situation of "should I deduct for that or not?" Second is that no judge may be from a country that has an athlete competing in the event. So, with USA, China, Russia, and other powerhouse countries not allowed a judge, this leaves inexperienced judges from places such as South Africa (when have you seen a South African gymnast compete?). Their inexperience also makes them more susceptible to the crowd's influence.

As for the female gymnasts from China, 3 of them all have documents stating they are under the allowed age for competition. The only thing that disagrees with this is the passports they each had issued by the Chinese government this year. It's not that hard for China to forge its own passports.

And it's not like it would be the first time China's done this...

Yang Yun (CHN): Yang competed at the 2000 Summer Olympics in Sydney and won an individual bronze on the uneven bars. At the time she competed under documents listing birthdate as December 2 1984, which would have made her 15 years, 9 months old during the Olympic opening ceremonies. She later revealed in a television interview that she had been 14 years old in Sydney. Her competition of age of 14 was later confirmed by sports officials in Hunan province.

[Ltangelic]

The announcers were discussing yesterday the two reasons why China gets an advantage in judging. One is that the crowd cheers louder for China, which could affect the judging, especially in a close situation of "should I deduct for that or not?" Second is that no judge may be from a country that has an athlete competing in the event. So, with USA, China, Russia, and other powerhouse countries not allowed a judge, this leaves inexperienced judges from places such as South Africa (when have you seen a South African gymnast compete?). Their inexperience also makes them more susceptible to the crowd's influence.

As for the female gymnasts from China, 3 of them all have documents stating they are under the allowed age for competition. The only thing that disagrees with this is the passports they each had issued by the Chinese government this year. It's not that hard for China to forge its own passports.

And it's not like it would be the first time China's done this...

Yang Yun (CHN): Yang competed at the 2000 Summer Olympics in Sydney and won an individual bronze on the uneven bars. At the time she competed under documents listing birthdate as December 2 1984, which would have made her 15 years, 9 months old during the Olympic opening ceremonies. She later revealed in a television interview that she had been 14 years old in Sydney. Her competition of age of 14 was later confirmed by sports officials in Hunan province.

Stettybet, I doubt the girl changed her birthdate for the Olympics, I mean when she was born, how did her parents know she was even going to be in Olympics?

One fact many people here may not know about China: Because China starts school in September, those babies born after September 1st will have to go to school one year later than other babies born in the same year. Many parents don't want their children to go to school too late, and thus some change the dates or the year of the birthdate. Chinese government does NOT allow people to forge passports, don't misunderstand that. Also, you can hardly amend details in your passport once you have confirmed your details with the local police, so most likely many parents falsely reported their child's birthdate when they went to get a passport for their babies. For me, my real birthdate is September 3rd, but my passport birthdate is days before my real birthday.

Not much of a harm done changing the birthdates in my opinion, I mean the parents have the good heart for their children, I don't blame them.

[dsenette]

Stettybet, I doubt the girl changed her birthdate for the Olympics, I mean when she was born, how did her parents know she was even going to be in Olympics?

....well....being from a country that is known to make documents "disappear" or suddenly change content (no i'm not from mother russia or cuba or anything like that....from the good ol' U.S. of A.)...it's not really that difficult to change everything documented about a person's life....in fact you rarely have to change everything...just your birth certificate....as long as the one on file is "official"....then every other document in existence is wrong....i would doubt that they changed the date at birth in hopes of the child being in the olympics early (however...it's still conceivable)...but they could have changed the dates as soon as it was possible that they would be in the olympics

Chinese government does NOT allow people to forge passports, don't misunderstand that. Also, you can hardly amend details in your passport once you have confirmed your details with the local police,

depends on how important that child's birthdate is....sure if you're trying to get your kid in school a year early it's not easy...but if the entire government wants your kid born in 82 instead of 83....it's not that hard for it to happen



again i'm not an investigator nor do i have access to any paperwork...but for anyone in any country (not just china who has a history of "revisionist history") to suggest that it's impossible to change dates or information about someone is a bit laughable....it's not that hard for someone to do it to escape the government's watchful eye....and it's even easier when the government is the one making the changes



now where's my tinfoil hat?

[Ltangelic]

1)...well....being from a country that is known to make documents "disappear" or suddenly change content

2) it's not really that difficult to change everything documented about a person's life....in fact you rarely have to change everything...just your birth certificate....as long as the one on file is "official"....then every other document in existence is wrong....i would doubt that they changed the date at birth in hopes of the child being in the olympics early (however...it's still conceivable)...but they could have changed the dates as soon as it was possible that they would be in the olympics

depends on how important that child's birthdate is....sure if you're trying to get your kid in school a year early it's not easy...but if the entire government wants your kid born in 82 instead of 83....it's not that hard for it to happen

again i'm not an investigator nor do i have access to any paperwork...but for anyone in any country (not just china who has a history of "revisionist history") to suggest that it's impossible to change dates or information about someone is a bit laughable....it's not that hard for someone to do it to escape the government's watchful eye....and it's even easier when the government is the one making the changes

1) Now I'm not trying to say you're wrong, but where did you get that information of yours? Point me to the source perhaps? Ok, maybe you are trying to say that the Chinese government hides information from the world public and the Chinese people? You are right in a sense, and I also disapprove such acts from the government. But trust me, it's not just CCP that does this sort of "dirty work", many other countries' government hides "ugly news" from the public's eyes. Tell me, which government will openly disclose their inner corruption and lose support from the citizens?

In case you didn't know, most Chinese have the "bad news inside the house should not be made known to the public" and "outsiders should not interfere with other people's internal affairs" mentality, and I don't doubt that many Chinese leaders have that mentality as well. But I have to agree that hiding every single bad news is not always a good idea, but asking CCP to start disclosing every bad thing they have done is impossible, so is it for any government. Also, it's not very likely that CCP will open up completely and let Western countries pinpoint and give directions to China in its development. China never came in and criticised any country for their political systems or economic development, so they don't want others to do that as well, it sounds reasonable to me at the very least.

But yah, as China steps onto the global stage, it needs to get ready for world criticism and be more open to nitpicking. But sadly, many Western medias are using this Olympics chance to disgrace and humiliate China, and even to the point of slandering the CCP. Sure, China should be open to criticism. But slandering? No way. No Chinese in China or outside of China is going to allow that. The Chinese may not like the CCP (don't think CCP is 100% supported), but they won't tolerate others who slander their government as well, and that's exactly WHAT the western media is doing with the Tibet issue.

2) About changing birthdates and such, no one has concrete proof on whether what you said is right or wrong. Everything is an assumption, so let's leave it at that until someone finds a reliable source (not a biased one) to support that assumption.

Edited by Ltangelic, 20 August 2008 - 07:00 AM.

[Troy]

now where's my tinfoil hat?

[dsenette]

1) Now I'm not trying to say you're wrong, but where did you get that information of yours? Point me to the source perhaps? Ok, maybe you are trying to say that the Chinese government hides information from the world public and the Chinese people? You are right in a sense, and I also disapprove such acts from the government. But trust me, it's not just CCP that does this sort of "dirty work", many other countries' government hides "ugly news" from the public's eyes. Tell me, which government will openly disclose their inner corruption and lose support from the citizens?

that's exactly what i said...every government is guilty of doing this like this...changing documents to suit their needs (WMD's in iraq? sure we'll write a paper that says it's fact - proven to have happened in the US)

The Chinese may not like the CCP (don't think CCP is 100% supported), but they won't tolerate others who slander their government as well, and that's exactly WHAT the western media is doing with the Tibet issue.

hehe i'm not even going to touch that one

2) About changing birthdates and such, no one has concrete proof on whether what you said is right or wrong. Everything is an assumption, so let's leave it at that until someone finds a reliable source (not a biased one) to support that assumption.

of course...it's medically impossible to confirm age to anything closer than a couple of years....so it can never be proven unless there's a paper trail....i didn't make up the idea that the girls are younger than they claim to be....it's a pretty widely supported idea...i can't prove squat though...just raising concerns about corruption in an organization that shouldn't have such things (i.e. the olympics...which it's a known fact have suffered corruption and other "bad ju ju" from the first olympics in greece..)

[dsenette]

also..i REALLY REALLY want to add that i'm not trying to start something or stir the pot....i'm not here claiming that china is some evil horrible regime that's worse than anywhere in the world....i'm not "picking on china" the olympics are there and that's where the topic came up...

China has a RICH and beautiful history that pre-dates most other civilizations and they are responsible for MANY of the advancements that the entire planet holds dear....

i'm not besmirching the country or it's people...just pointing out a discussion about something

[stettybet0]

[quote name='Ltangelic' post='1311479' date='Aug 20 2008, 08:57 AM']2) About changing birthdates and such, no one has concrete proof on whether what you said is right or wrong. Everything is an assumption, so let's leave it at that until someone finds a reliable source (not a biased one) to support that assumption.[/quote]
[quote name='http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/27/sports/olympics/27gymnasts.html'][He Kexin]

In Chinese newspaper profiles this year, He was listed as 14, too young for the Beijing Games.

The Times found two online records of official registration lists of Chinese gymnasts that list He’s birthday as Jan. 1, 1994, which would make her 14. A 2007 national registry of Chinese gymnasts — now blocked in China but viewable through Google cache — shows He’s age as “1994.1.1.”

Another registration list that is unblocked, dated Jan. 27, 2006, and regarding an “intercity” competition in Chengdu, China, also lists He’s birthday as Jan. 1, 1994. That date differs by two years from the birth date of Jan. 1, 1992, listed on He’s passport, which was issued Feb. 14, 2008.

...

[Jiang Yuyuan]

The other gymnast, Jiang, is listed on her passport — issued March 2, 2006 — as having been born on Nov. 1, 1991, which would make her 16 and thus eligible to compete at the Beijing Games.

A different birth date, indicating Jiang is not yet 15, appears on a list of junior competitors from the Zhejiang Province sports administration. The list of athletes includes national identification card numbers into which birth dates are embedded. Jiang’s national card number as it appears on this list shows her birth date as Oct. 1, 1993, which indicates that she will turn 15 in the fall, and would thus be ineligible to compete in the Beijing Games.

...

Age is an easy thing to alter in an authoritarian country, he said, because the government has such strict control of official paperwork.[/quote]
[quote name='http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E04E6DC173EF937A3575BC0A96E9C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=1'][Yang Yilin]

Registration lists from 2003 to 2006, previously posted on the Web site of the General Administration of Sport of China, said Yang was born on Aug. 26, 1993, which means she will turn 15 later this month. Gymnasts must turn 16 during the year of the Olympics to be eligible to compete in the Games.

On the 2007 registration list, Yang's birthday changed to Aug. 26, 1992, suddenly making her old enough for the Olympics, The A.P. said.[/quote]

There's your facts. So, now you have to decide to believe the media reporting the facts (gotten from China's own registration lists, no less), or the authoritarian government with a history of doing this.

Edited by stettybet0, 20 August 2008 - 10:54 PM.

[wannabe1]

Leave it to a geek to get the real skinny on things.

http://www.foxnews.c...,407803,00.html

[Tal]

Eeks, we suck. One bronze medal! Guess we should stick to basketball.

[Chopin]

ignore this

Edited by Fredil, 21 August 2008 - 06:58 PM.